Idea to fix the lack of Char Customization and Horizontal Progression: Action Glamour

[Kaurie]

While I am not against the idea of action glamours, it is not the solution to lack of traits, build customization or horizontal progression that I have been seeking.

[Zumi]

While I am not against the idea of action glamours, it is not the solution to lack of traits, build customization or horizontal progression that I have been seeking.

For the most part in mmos build customization is an illusion of choice. Awhile back ago in WoW they had huge talent trees where people could put like 80 points into their talents in 3 different trees. But for every class and spec min maxers came out and said this 1 build does the best dps if you aren't using it you are wrong. So they did away with the huge talent tress because having an illusion of choice was just bad game design.

SE has a similar problem with FFXIV but on a smaller scale with every class they have 1 stat they stack, playing a nin, bard, or mch if you didn't put all your points in dex you are doing it wrong. Playing a monk or drg not putting all your points in str you are doing it wrong.

Personally I would like to see them get rid of stat allocations and do something else.

[Kaurie]

For the most part in mmos build customization is an illusion of choice. Awhile back ago in WoW they had huge talent trees where people could put like 80 points into their talents in 3 different trees. But for every class and spec min maxers came out and said this 1 build does the best dps if you aren't using it you are wrong. So they did away with the huge talent tress because having an illusion of choice was just bad game design.

IMO this argument is horrible. If we don't want to have an illusion of choice, they should just give us 1 button that executes our rotation - because choosing which order to press buttons is also an illusion of choice. Why even have secondary stats or primary ones for that matter. There should be 0 stats, and no gear - just an ilvl that you can obtain. 1 ilvl, 1 skill, because having more is just an illusion anyway.

Having 0 choice in your build is horrible game design in an RPG, and no other RPG does this. All of the great RPGs (MMO and single alike) give you customization. Regardless, I realize it's not coming here and I'll ultimately quit this game because of it.

That doesn't negate the fact that the OP suggestion doesn't tackle the request at all.

[Zumi]

IMO this argument is horrible. If we don't want to have an illusion of choice, they should just give us 1 button that executes our rotation - because choosing which order to press buttons is also an illusion of choice. Why even have secondary stats or primary ones for that matter. There should be 0 stats, and no gear - just an ilvl that you can obtain. 1 ilvl, 1 skill, because having more is just an illusion anyway.

Having 0 choice in your build is horrible game design in an RPG, and no other RPG does this. All of the great RPGs (MMO and single alike) give you customization. Regardless, I realize it's not coming here and I'll ultimately quit this game because of it.

That doesn't negate the fact that the OP suggestion doesn't tackle the request at all.

I mean professional game designers have spoken on the matter several years ago. Which is why most mmos today don't use the huge build design anymore where you pick a bunch of talents/abilities. They didn't want people to handicap themselves by making the incorrect choices. It was like well they have other options to pick but they were all bad once the math has been figured out, and thus picking them leads people into a trap of being ineffective or handicapped cause they didn't pick the talent build which has already been mathematically proven to be the optimal best.

[Kaurie]

I mean professional game designers have spoken on the matter several years ago. Which is why most mmos today don't use the huge build design anymore where you pick a bunch of talents/abilities. They didn't want people to handicap themselves by making the incorrect choices. It was like well they have other options to pick but they were all bad once the math has been figured out, and thus picking them leads people into a trap of being ineffective or handicapped cause they didn't pick the talent build which has already been mathematically proven to be the optimal best.

Which other modern MMO has done away with all build design? Every single one I play has some.

Guild Wars 2
has trait paths you can do with major traits that affect the way your skills work - as well as having gear builds, and customized skill sets (you can choose to bring a limited number of utility and have a wide selection. It has a bit more, but point made there I think.

World of Warcraft
still has trait paths that you can choose, specializations that you can choose, interesting stats that you can pick and choose from and has glyphs as well as crafting stuff that augments how you play (like enchanting).

Wildstar
has customized action bar sets where you choose which skills you want and can add limited action points to skills to change how they operate as well as AMPs which unlock certain abilities or change how your abilities may work.

Blade and Soul
has a pie chart thing - I only played briefly in Closed Beta, but there was some customization there. There was also a trait/skill tree to unlock your desired path.

Tera
has a system, i think called glyphs, but it's been awhile. You can purchase these to unlock them and then apply a limited number of points to each skill to modify how they work.

Onto a couple of successful recent single player RPGs.

Fallout 4
has multiple paths, where you can choose to buff up your strength or focus on things like lockpicking, persuasion or toughness.

Witcher 3
has skills that you unlock via investing in as you level up and then a system to modify them via Mutagens

The closest thing this game has is the system where you can change jobs on one class. While cool, it's not really the same thing.
Despite all of this, I personally found Vanilla WoWs the most fun system. It's too bad they scrapped it.

[Alahra]

While I've wanted action glamours for a long time, they won't really satisfy the itch for customization that most players seeking it want. Customization in RPGs is ultimately about mechanical consequence and significance, something ability glamours would lack entirely.

[Devils_Lawyer]

Great idea in my opinion but you forget one thing.

According to SE people cannot tell the difference between classes unless they look like the classes should (never mind the actual class symbol with matching background color) which is the reason mages cannot glamour metal armor etc.

If a White mage suddenly starts shooting fire then all them poor players will not be able to tell hes a healer and its the same problem all over.

[YGSLlew]

Which other modern MMO has done away with all build design? Every single one I play has some.

Guild Wars 2
has trait paths you can do with major traits that affect the way your skills work - as well as having gear builds, and customized skill sets (you can choose to bring a limited number of utility and have a wide selection. It has a bit more, but point made there I think.

World of Warcraft
still has trait paths that you can choose, specializations that you can choose, interesting stats that you can pick and choose from and has glyphs as well as crafting stuff that augments how you play (like enchanting).

Wildstar
has customized action bar sets where you choose which skills you want and can add limited action points to skills to change how they operate as well as AMPs which unlock certain abilities or change how your abilities may work.

Blade and Soul
has a pie chart thing - I only played briefly in Closed Beta, but there was some customization there. There was also a trait/skill tree to unlock your desired path.

Tera
has a system, i think called glyphs, but it's been awhile. You can purchase these to unlock them and then apply a limited number of points to each skill to modify how they work.

Onto a couple of successful recent single player RPGs.

Fallout 4
has multiple paths, where you can choose to buff up your strength or focus on things like lockpicking, persuasion or toughness.

Witcher 3
has skills that you unlock via investing in as you level up and then a system to modify them via Mutagens

The closest thing this game has is the system where you can change jobs on one class. While cool, it's not really the same thing.
Despite all of this, I personally found Vanilla WoWs the most fun system. It's too bad they scrapped it.

Don't forget "The Secret World": You have a so called "Skill Wheel" with 512 different skills. You had to build your "deck" with 7 active and 7 passive skills, fitting to your choice of primary and secondary weapon. This was a nice method of customizing your playstyle.

[Kaurie]

Don't forget "The Secret World": You have a so called "Skill Wheel" with 512 different skills. You had to build your "deck" with 7 active and 7 passive skills, fitting to your choice of primary and secondary weapon. This was a nice method of customizing your playstyle.

Ah I wasn't forgetting Secret World, I was just listing games that I've played :P I've never really played Secret World (I think I briefly played a beta or something a long time ago)

[silentwindfr]

For the most part in mmos build customization is an illusion of choice. Awhile back ago in WoW they had huge talent trees where people could put like 80 points into their talents in 3 different trees. But for every class and spec min maxers came out and said this 1 build does the best dps if you aren't using it you are wrong. So they did away with the huge talent tress because having an illusion of choice was just bad game design.

SE has a similar problem with FFXIV but on a smaller scale with every class they have 1 stat they stack, playing a nin, bard, or mch if you didn't put all your points in dex you are doing it wrong. Playing a monk or drg not putting all your points in str you are doing it wrong.

Personally I would like to see them get rid of stat allocations and do something else.

first even illusion of choice is still choice. not everyone will try to be optimized and time to time new idea will pop out and new way to play will be found.

now about the stats point actually it's SE fault this system is too much wrong. do we really have the choice? no, outside the tank, all the other jobs will probably never invest point in other stats, because from the start, the primary wasn't the one we was needing to.... customize.

if you want to add customization, you can, if you really try. the trouble there is not in the game, but in the dev mentality to only think the game throught the hardcore and the raid. when we have a whole game unused and barely developed like it can be... because all them effort are turned to make the raid only revelant content. and since they want to balance the content for hardcore player, they need to be sure people will have the same stats and such for match them test team.

we can say, they have added casual content, but it's not the most important part of the content for them... the best example is the last live letter, where every concern of the dev was to make sure that the raid will be done.... they have loose of sights that a mmorpg is not only about raiding... that why we don't have customization, that why we only have one type of endgame content.... that why each patch look a like soo much... that because the dev are trying too hard to make everyone do raid. when a mmorpg is not only played by raider. (and less by hardcore)

ps: for make simple for make a choice exist, you need to offer decent option....