The harp is a lie.

[Ferth]

The problem is not that bard comes from archer... it's that when you change to bard it takes the place of your archer.

If it was just that you needed to level archer to a certain point to unlock bard and then you leveled bard I would care far less. But you unlock bard.. and it can immediately take the place of your archer. For those people who have archer at 50, they are going to effectively have bard at 50 too.

You can level as nothing but archer and your bard progresses too. That is what creates dissonance with me. You don't ever have to pick up a harp to know how to use it.

Yeah, your level 30 white mage in ffxi could unlock bard or samurai or ninja... but once unlocked, you started those jobs at level one and you had to level them up for them to be effective... You didn't hit level 30 and magically get a brand new role to play that was also level 30.

[Anonymoose]

when you change to bard it takes the place of your archer.

That's a very bold claim to make. Citation needed?

I was under the impression that "Jobs" were a set of quests that gave you access to abilities and traits that would otherwise have been left unavailable to you, thereby specializing and strengthening your class.

Where are you getting your info? o.0

[Ferth]

Where does it say jobs are a set of quests? I've not seen this information either.

From what Yoshi has said regarding jobs they don't have a rank or a level associated with them, they don't progress. They are supposed to be a more restrictive skill set for a class designed to be used in parties. As such, archers who have bard can either play as Archer, or they can play as Bard, either way they gain levels for the archer class.

If anyone has seen information contrary to this, by all means, please share.

[Anonymoose]

Where does it say jobs are a set of quests? I've not seen this information either.

From what Yoshi has said regarding jobs they don't have a rank or a level associated with them, they don't progress. They are supposed to be a more restrictive skill set for a class designed to be used in parties. As such, archers who have bard can either play as Archer, or they can play as Bard, either way they gain levels for the archer class.

If anyone has seen information contrary to this, by all means, please share.

He alluded to such when we (GamerEscape) were granted an interview back in July.

Gamer Escape: Currently each class has a guild where they can use marks to upgrade their class etc. How will the new Job System tie into the guilds?

Yoshida-san: The methods of upgrading your class and the methods of upgrading your jobs will follow different paths. We plan to make it so guild marks do not exert a direct affect on jobs. For jobs, we plan on upgrading them via quests known as specialized trials.

If you haven't read the interview over, please check it out. ^u^

[Davorok]

.... But you unlock bard.. and it can immediately take the place of your archer. For those people who have archer at 50, they are going to effectively have bard at 50 too.

Except that they stated "..you do not level Jobs..", so you are probably never really a r50 Bard but rather an r50 Archer with whatever Bard Abilities are available from r30, although I suspect that there will be extra abilities your Job can learn as you progress on the Archer Class Quests every 10 levels or so. Will the r50's magically have all the abilities as soon as the patch goes live? Perhaps but I am betting they will still have to complete some quests (easy for r50's) to unlock all the abilities.

...You can level as nothing but archer and your bard progresses too. That is what creates dissonance with me. You don't ever have to pick up a harp to know how to use it.

Well, I would guess that you have to pick up the Harp and learn to use it when you do the quest that unlocks it.

...Yeah, your level 30 white mage in ffxi could unlock bard or samurai or ninja... but once unlocked, you started those jobs at level one and you had to level them up for them to be effective... You didn't hit level 30 and magically get a brand new role to play that was also level 30.

Again..the new Job is not r30 but rather your r30 Archer has now unlocked some new abilities (Bard Abilities) and will likely unlock more upon r40, r50, etc by completing the required quests. Even current r50's will probably have to do these quests to unlock the new abilities.

I understand your concerns because if not done delicately, it could all be a disaster but I try to have some faith that the Devs are not complete morons and that they will have a workable, logical progression for new characters/players. The r50's unfortunately just get a "me so sorry" for leveling their classes beyond new content recommendations. That is why I stopped leveling my Archer and just do a little gathering/crafting to maintain my once-a-month requirement for venting on these forums.

[Ferth]

Hmm. Thanks for finding that for me. That atleast gives me a little hope for jobs, though from other information Yoshi has given job level is still the same as that of the class that unlocks it.

I'd still like more information regarding this, especially given how simple quests have been in the game so far.

[Ferth]

...

Your tone says arguing... but your points are really the same as my points.

Thanks to anonymoose for the link and the quote from Yoshi about Job upgrades.

But a level 30 archer with the bard job activated however you choose to say it is still a level 30 character, and now we get back to the bigger issue of bard skills and archer skills not being overly compatible. You are contradicting your point about archer unlocking bard... because now it isn't unlocking bard and you can choose one or the other... you are an archer and suddenly you start playing the harp too... they are completely different skill sets.

And that's the crux of the debate, and the crux of my dissatisfaction with the proposed job system. Right now I can turn my gladiator into a pseudo paladin, I can learn protect, shell, cure, I can distribute my attributes so I have a decent MP pool. In practice I'm functioning as a paladin.

If they are going to add the job paladin I'd like it to rely on the class system more than just getting gladiator to a certain level and doing a quest. It makes sense that if I level up Gladiator and level up Conjurer I can take skills from both of those classes to unlock the paladin job.

If they are going to add instrument use to the game I'd much rather see them implementing the class system to do it. Introduce a minstrel or a musician class and then have it be one of the required classes to unlock the bard job... if another of those classes happens to be archer that's ok.

[NoctisUmbra]

Here I thought we were all on the same page on Jobs if we were discussing Barcher in such detail.

It is indeed as a few others have said before me. From what little we know so far, a Job will in fact be something you explicitly unlock. It is not simply extra abilities for Archer. You will, in some fashion, have the ability to switch into a Bard. The level of the job will be based on the level of the class that it is linked to. However, in a similar fashion to how classes gain access to new skills via guild marks, jobs will gain access to new skills via special quests.

So simply put, even a rank 50 Archer will not be a fully developed Bard just by unlocking it, but will have to do numerous quests to gain further abilities.

How I expect Jobs to play out is once you unlock the job itself, you receive some starter gear, such as starter weapons, for said job. They clearly appear to be specialized. It is known that the level to unlock jobs will not be 50, so whatever starter gear one gets would be at the level of the quest that unlocks it - leaving further room to develop the job since you will want the highest level job-specific gear. It only makes sense to me, because I can't imagine Archers simply turning their Crab Bows into lyres after unlocking a Bard. It would also be equally silly if you unlocked the Job and could not switch to it.

In any case, there isn't much known about Jobs as it is clear they do not want to say too much about them just yet. Much too early to pass judgement on the job system overall at this point.

[Konachibi]

And that's the crux of the debate, and the crux of my dissatisfaction with the proposed job system. Right now I can turn my gladiator into a pseudo paladin, I can learn protect, shell, cure, I can distribute my attributes so I have a decent MP pool. In practice I'm functioning as a paladin.

This actually popped up in my linkshell today when we were watching our main tank solo Slithery Sykes.
He has cure, protect, shell, sacrifice and a whole range of other buff + heal spells, and his armour looks very 'paladiny'. So as we watched him we began thinking:
"Since jobs won't be able to use seperate class abilities (e.g/ Paladins unable to use Pugilist skills etc.) what will a Paladin, or any other job for that matter, possess that would give a player a good reason to want to use that job over operating a hybrid class?"

The only real answer is if they introduce dungeons that simply aren't doable using hybrid classes. For example giving a Paladin an ability that let's it increase it's defence by 100% so it can take the damage a dungeon enemy would throw at it, that a Gladiator couldn't survive against since it would lack the ability.

The only way they can make jobs a usable function really is to make content 'too hard for hybrids'.

Just my thoughts on that bit >.>'

[NoctisUmbra]

This actually popped up in my linkshell today when we were watching our main tank solo Slithery Sykes.
He has cure, protect, shell, sacrifice and a whole range of other buff + heal spells, and his armour looks very 'paladiny'. So as we watched him we began thinking:
"Since jobs won't be able to use seperate class abilities (e.g/ Paladins unable to use Pugilist skills etc.) what will a Paladin, or any other job for that matter, possess that would give a player a good reason to want to use that job over operating a hybrid class?"

The only real answer is if they introduce dungeons that simply aren't doable using hybrid classes. For example giving a Paladin an ability that let's it increase it's defence by 100% so it can take the damage a dungeon enemy would throw at it, that a Gladiator couldn't survive against since it would lack the ability.

The only way they can make jobs a usable function really is to make content 'too hard for hybrids'.

Just my thoughts on that bit >.>'

The thing with classes as they are is once you level up most if not all of them to cap or near cap with all the cross-classing you can do, every job becomes solo-viable. Some more than others, of course, but overall the classes become meshed together. Jobs, however, are much more about clearly defined roles and specialization.

The idea behind Jobs is that equipping it will make you very proficient at a certain duty, but not useful at much else.

A Paladin will be amazing at taking hits and keeping hate. It will be all about survival and protection. It won't be able to kill efficiently at all.

A White Mage will be a master of cures and recovery skills, but like the Paladin will not have any offensive use.

Black Mage is a glass cannon. It can dish out amazing hurt, but only if someone else is there to take the hate.

The way the Armoury system is, anyone can be anything on any class almost. Except, to keep this in check, they have it designed so you still cannot effectively specialize. Class balance would go out the window.

Therefore a Paladin will have the stats, gear and skill to tank much better than a Gladiator with all the proper skills equipped now. If that is not the case, Jobs would be pointless. However, a Gladiator would be a DPS machine compared to a Paladin.