The harp is a lie.

[Ferth]

The problem is not that bard comes from archer... it's that when you change to bard it takes the place of your archer.

If it was just that you needed to level archer to a certain point to unlock bard and then you leveled bard I would care far less. But you unlock bard.. and it can immediately take the place of your archer. For those people who have archer at 50, they are going to effectively have bard at 50 too.

You can level as nothing but archer and your bard progresses too. That is what creates dissonance with me. You don't ever have to pick up a harp to know how to use it.

Yeah, your level 30 white mage in ffxi could unlock bard or samurai or ninja... but once unlocked, you started those jobs at level one and you had to level them up for them to be effective... You didn't hit level 30 and magically get a brand new role to play that was also level 30.

[Anonymoose]

when you change to bard it takes the place of your archer.

That's a very bold claim to make. Citation needed?

I was under the impression that "Jobs" were a set of quests that gave you access to abilities and traits that would otherwise have been left unavailable to you, thereby specializing and strengthening your class.

Where are you getting your info? o.0

[Davorok]

.... But you unlock bard.. and it can immediately take the place of your archer. For those people who have archer at 50, they are going to effectively have bard at 50 too.

Except that they stated "..you do not level Jobs..", so you are probably never really a r50 Bard but rather an r50 Archer with whatever Bard Abilities are available from r30, although I suspect that there will be extra abilities your Job can learn as you progress on the Archer Class Quests every 10 levels or so. Will the r50's magically have all the abilities as soon as the patch goes live? Perhaps but I am betting they will still have to complete some quests (easy for r50's) to unlock all the abilities.

...You can level as nothing but archer and your bard progresses too. That is what creates dissonance with me. You don't ever have to pick up a harp to know how to use it.

Well, I would guess that you have to pick up the Harp and learn to use it when you do the quest that unlocks it.

...Yeah, your level 30 white mage in ffxi could unlock bard or samurai or ninja... but once unlocked, you started those jobs at level one and you had to level them up for them to be effective... You didn't hit level 30 and magically get a brand new role to play that was also level 30.

Again..the new Job is not r30 but rather your r30 Archer has now unlocked some new abilities (Bard Abilities) and will likely unlock more upon r40, r50, etc by completing the required quests. Even current r50's will probably have to do these quests to unlock the new abilities.

I understand your concerns because if not done delicately, it could all be a disaster but I try to have some faith that the Devs are not complete morons and that they will have a workable, logical progression for new characters/players. The r50's unfortunately just get a "me so sorry" for leveling their classes beyond new content recommendations. That is why I stopped leveling my Archer and just do a little gathering/crafting to maintain my once-a-month requirement for venting on these forums.

[Ferth]

...

Your tone says arguing... but your points are really the same as my points.

Thanks to anonymoose for the link and the quote from Yoshi about Job upgrades.

But a level 30 archer with the bard job activated however you choose to say it is still a level 30 character, and now we get back to the bigger issue of bard skills and archer skills not being overly compatible. You are contradicting your point about archer unlocking bard... because now it isn't unlocking bard and you can choose one or the other... you are an archer and suddenly you start playing the harp too... they are completely different skill sets.

And that's the crux of the debate, and the crux of my dissatisfaction with the proposed job system. Right now I can turn my gladiator into a pseudo paladin, I can learn protect, shell, cure, I can distribute my attributes so I have a decent MP pool. In practice I'm functioning as a paladin.

If they are going to add the job paladin I'd like it to rely on the class system more than just getting gladiator to a certain level and doing a quest. It makes sense that if I level up Gladiator and level up Conjurer I can take skills from both of those classes to unlock the paladin job.

If they are going to add instrument use to the game I'd much rather see them implementing the class system to do it. Introduce a minstrel or a musician class and then have it be one of the required classes to unlock the bard job... if another of those classes happens to be archer that's ok.

[Konachibi]

And that's the crux of the debate, and the crux of my dissatisfaction with the proposed job system. Right now I can turn my gladiator into a pseudo paladin, I can learn protect, shell, cure, I can distribute my attributes so I have a decent MP pool. In practice I'm functioning as a paladin.

This actually popped up in my linkshell today when we were watching our main tank solo Slithery Sykes.
He has cure, protect, shell, sacrifice and a whole range of other buff + heal spells, and his armour looks very 'paladiny'. So as we watched him we began thinking:
"Since jobs won't be able to use seperate class abilities (e.g/ Paladins unable to use Pugilist skills etc.) what will a Paladin, or any other job for that matter, possess that would give a player a good reason to want to use that job over operating a hybrid class?"

The only real answer is if they introduce dungeons that simply aren't doable using hybrid classes. For example giving a Paladin an ability that let's it increase it's defence by 100% so it can take the damage a dungeon enemy would throw at it, that a Gladiator couldn't survive against since it would lack the ability.

The only way they can make jobs a usable function really is to make content 'too hard for hybrids'.

Just my thoughts on that bit >.>'

[NoctisUmbra]

This actually popped up in my linkshell today when we were watching our main tank solo Slithery Sykes.
He has cure, protect, shell, sacrifice and a whole range of other buff + heal spells, and his armour looks very 'paladiny'. So as we watched him we began thinking:
"Since jobs won't be able to use seperate class abilities (e.g/ Paladins unable to use Pugilist skills etc.) what will a Paladin, or any other job for that matter, possess that would give a player a good reason to want to use that job over operating a hybrid class?"

The only real answer is if they introduce dungeons that simply aren't doable using hybrid classes. For example giving a Paladin an ability that let's it increase it's defence by 100% so it can take the damage a dungeon enemy would throw at it, that a Gladiator couldn't survive against since it would lack the ability.

The only way they can make jobs a usable function really is to make content 'too hard for hybrids'.

Just my thoughts on that bit >.>'

The thing with classes as they are is once you level up most if not all of them to cap or near cap with all the cross-classing you can do, every job becomes solo-viable. Some more than others, of course, but overall the classes become meshed together. Jobs, however, are much more about clearly defined roles and specialization.

The idea behind Jobs is that equipping it will make you very proficient at a certain duty, but not useful at much else.

A Paladin will be amazing at taking hits and keeping hate. It will be all about survival and protection. It won't be able to kill efficiently at all.

A White Mage will be a master of cures and recovery skills, but like the Paladin will not have any offensive use.

Black Mage is a glass cannon. It can dish out amazing hurt, but only if someone else is there to take the hate.

The way the Armoury system is, anyone can be anything on any class almost. Except, to keep this in check, they have it designed so you still cannot effectively specialize. Class balance would go out the window.

Therefore a Paladin will have the stats, gear and skill to tank much better than a Gladiator with all the proper skills equipped now. If that is not the case, Jobs would be pointless. However, a Gladiator would be a DPS machine compared to a Paladin.

[Konachibi]

The thing with classes as they are is once you level up most if not all of them to cap or near cap with all the cross-classing you can do, every job becomes solo-viable. Some more than others, of course, but overall the classes become meshed together. Jobs, however, are much more about clearly defined roles and specialization.

The idea behind Jobs is that equipping it will make you very proficient at a certain duty, but not useful at much else.

A Paladin will be amazing at taking hits and keeping hate. It will be all about survival and protection. It won't be able to kill efficiently at all.

A White Mage will be a master of cures and recovery skills, but like the Paladin will not have any offensive use.

Black Mage is a glass cannon. It can dish out amazing hurt, but only if someone else is there to take the hate.

The way the Armoury system is, anyone can be anything on any class almost. Except, to keep this in check, they have it designed so you still cannot effectively specialize. Class balance would go out the window.

Therefore a Paladin will have the stats, gear and skill to tank much better than a Gladiator with all the proper skills equipped now. If that is not the case, Jobs would be pointless. However, a Gladiator would be a DPS machine compared to a Paladin.

That's what I was getting at. Unless they make content harder so that players will have to play Paladins to do content because a Gladiator couldn't survive it, there'd be no reason to be a Paladin in the first place, people would still go with Captain Healytank.

[Davorok]

Your tone says arguing... but your points are really the same as my points.

I prefer the term "Conversation" rather than "Arguing" (I just tend to ramble so I like to multi-quote). Your points are good valid points. That is why I feel the need to attempt to respond with where I think they are going. I wish I had solid info to base my theories on but it is a mixture of 33% Speculation, 33% Observation, 33% Flatulation (BS) and 1% Verification (truth).

And that's the crux of the debate, and the crux of my dissatisfaction with the proposed job system. Right now I can turn my gladiator into a pseudo paladin, I can learn protect, shell, cure, I can distribute my attributes so I have a decent MP pool. In practice I'm functioning as a paladin.

I think it comes down to the basic human desire to feel needed. With the old Class System, anyone could tank...literally anyone. People also want to feel special, that they are really good at something which means better than someone else.
So now we are getting Jobs that are specialized and probably better at a Role.
That still doesn't phase out Classes though because almost anyone can still tank and almost anyone can still heal.

If they are going to add the job paladin I'd like it to rely on the class system more than just getting gladiator to a certain level and doing a quest. It makes sense that if I level up Gladiator and level up Conjurer I can take skills from both of those classes to unlock the paladin job.

I agree with this. I feel to unlock Paladin you should have to level Gad AND Con to r30. I think they should require 2 Classes to r30 for each Job. They could have introduced new Classes (like Minstrel and Arcanist) to make this viable. Sort of a spin on the old XI subjob system but rather than becoming a hybrid, you become a Job.

If they are going to add instrument use to the game I'd much rather see them implementing the class system to do it. Introduce a minstrel or a musician class and then have it be one of the required classes to unlock the bard job... if another of those classes happens to be archer that's ok.

Agreed. And introduce Arcanist Class to unlock jobs that use magic.

[Malakhim]

Next thing you guys know, SE will be coming up with various types of gunweapons from blades to lances, big ass flightless yellow birds, and little squirrel things with rubies on their foreheads.

That'd be so stupid.

[Davorok]

Next thing you guys know, SE will be coming up with various types of gunweapons from blades to lances...

I am surprised no one has mentioned the obvious GunHalberd the Galka Warrior is holding (not so sure having the barrel pointed at yourself is such a good idea though).

And the Dragoons Pole obviously transforms from Offensive Lance to Defensive Shield mode.

The Monks Wolf Hands must be for magic Wolf-Head Bite attacks (poison?) and must transform into..into..non wolf heads?

And the Paladins Shield obviously transforms into a 2nd sword.

Transforming AF weapons for everyone..well except for mages cuz they gonna do all their casting in Passive mode anyway.