The arrogance of some people

[Andrea]

A lazy healer is the one that stands there with full mp, if you have mp use it for something healing or dps, but im not required to use it for dps. I have 14k mana(Yes im not best geared) but hey i can use it im not going to stand there doing nothing.

Describing your playstyle as "I won't do more than I need to get things done" is lazy.

Its like saying expert roulette doesn't need people to do actual rotations to clear so im not going to do them.

Again if you currently need to heal then heal. Nobody is saying DPS over healing if healing someone is needed, as you said however if you're standing there between spells or even jumping around like I've seen healers do then yes, you are indeed lazy.

[Lament]

Sure i could do this, but its optional, not mandatory..my role is healer, which is to make sure no one dies and everyone is kept healthy..this game has been forcing this stupid mentality of healers MUST dps because of the dps checks...um no DPS just need to get better if we cant meet dps checks then its the DPS not doing their job properly...

With the poor Acc on healer gear we add like what 200-300 more dps? Why cant those dps optimize their rotations to get that extra? Why should i be forced to dps because the DPS are lazy and slacking or not fully doing their job? Im doing my job 100% because my job is to heal the group, not to assist in DPS...

I do not see a Healer/Dps flag when i que for duties.

You can mash the "I don't have to DPS it's not my job" key all you want, but optimal healer play in the current state of this particular game involves pushing out as much DPS as possible. If you're not optimizing your play you can't fault the DPS for not optimizing their rotations, either. You can't say "I don't want to play my class optimally, everyone else should so I don't have to".

Don't play optimally if you don't want to - in most of the content in this game, that's a non-issue. Just don't complain that others aren't playing optimally either, or that their idea of what a job's responsibilities are is different from yours.

Personally, I think any role's "job" is to help the group as much as possible using the tools available to them. This includes DPS tools when applicable for a healer just as much as defensive tools when applicable for a DPS and Clemency when applicable for a Paladin etc etc.

[Kaurie]

If you log in for 2 hours, and you complete 5 dungeons - you get 5 dungeons worth of rewards.
If you log in for 3 hours, and you complete 5 dungeons - you get 5 dungeons worth of rewards.


The only difference is that in one case you only received 2 hours worth of entertainment from those runs, and in the second, you got 3. This is a game, where the time you can spend enjoying it should be giving value to you. (If it didn't, you wouldn't be enjoying the game enough to be here.) Failing to appreciate this fact just leads to people running out of content and leaving the game because they're bored. Go through everything too fast and its entertainment won't last you very long.



Tomes/hour (or rewards/time) are just ways of looking at the income/expense ratio I was talking about myself. The problem is that you're treating it like the real world, where time would go on the expense side of that ratio. But the reason it's an expense in real-world scenarios is based on the recurrence patterns of real-world expenses, which keep coming up again and again in time-based intervals. In-game expenses don't follow that pattern, which makes for a very different sort of economy, especially where time is concerned.



But it's not the result itself that we're trying to scale. We were trying to scale the effectiveness of actions at being able to lead to that result. If action A will likely lead to success, and action B could possibly lead to success but probably not, then action A is more effective than action B. (It even works if both actions are likely to lead to success, but one slightly more likely to.) In the end you still have a binary success or failure result either way, but that doesn't prevent comparing effectiveness between the two approaches.

I will accept that time is significantly easier to measure than likelihood, though. (In fact, I strongly suspect that's the main reason speed is so popular as a personal goal.)



Arguing from a false premise doesn't get you anywhere. All we know for sure on this is that there are a lot of players who prefer runs to go faster, a lot of players who prefer runs to go slower, and a lot of players who couldn't care less about how fast they go so long as they end up with their completion rewards and loot by the end and have a fun time along the way. With nothing but anecdotal evidence to go by, I suspect the first group may indeed be somewhat larger than the second, but it's that third group which almost certainly makes up the majority. (The group I myself am in varies with my mood, so it could be any of the three.)



I'm not really advocating any particular style of play. I'm advocating that if people are going to talk about what makes players "good" or "bad", they should do so more accurately.

You can, on an individual level, be very good at achieving the result you like regardless of whether it's a result other people like or not. For instance, given the goals you yourself have expressed, if you're in fact skilled at achieving them, that would make you a very effective speedrunner. That takes skill and effort, and it's something you can be proud of being good at.

But what makes you good (or bad) at your goals might not make someone else good (or bad) if they have different goals. Finding the absolute optimum skill pattern for ensuring your runs all go smoothly (regardless of time) also takes skill and effort, and is also something that people can be good at.

When you look beyond yourself, and switch from deciding what you personally would like to be good at to what makes players in general (or for the context of this thread, healers in general) good at playing, then you should either base that on the standard goals that the game itself gives us, since those are the ones we have in common, or else accept the fact that there are a wide variety of playstyles that people can be good at.

Most of the toxicity in the game (and all the toxicity in this thread) comes from people saying, essentially: "The ONLY way to be good at the game is if you're good specifically at what I myself want. Having different goals than I do automatically makes you a bad player." That's the attitude I'm arguing against. And the reason I'm arguing against it (and at such length) is because of that toxicity it creates.

There are as many ways to be good as there are goals that people can have. If you're playing in the way that best meets the standard goals of the game, your own personal goals, and your teammates' goals, then you're a good player. If you're playing in a way that doesn't best meet the standard goals of the game, your own personal goals, or your teammates' goals, then you're a bad player.



It's nice to see there are at least some things we agree on.

I am really wondering how you are obtaining +likes on your posts. Each of your posts is actually showing complete lack of understanding of the person you are quoting, misrepresenting their words, or bringing in arguments against how they are arguing (though irrelevantly, because of the first two points).

For example in this post you reference my argument on economics, but claim it is irrlevenat because the game is not like the real world. However, my note on economics wasn't used to evidence anything in the game, and was used to evidence human behavior. In this sense, " you're treating it like the real world", yet I am not. I am treating the players like people who are from the real world, and explaining how many of them will have the perspectives that are drilled in to peoples minds from a young age in our society. I am attempting to bring together 3 subjects, psychology, sociology and economics, without going in to too much detail (as this is a video game forum).

You bring up circular reasoning, suggesting that i am saying "going faster is better" "why is it better "because it's faster", yet that is not my reasoning at all. It's much more like that "going faster is better" "why is it better" "because most people prefer it that way" "why do you think most people prefer it that way" " due to these sociological, economic and psychological reasonings, and the evidence of this thread, experience in game and complaint threads in regards to castrum/praetorium."

You took my note on why doing a dungeon run is better for higher productivity and made it an argument for something else. That's great, and again ignores the reason for the example. I get that people can enjoy the journey, but the reason for the example was not because it is everyone's goal, it's because it shows with numbers how productivity comes in to play.

You make it seem like I think that everyone and every situation works out how I explained, whereas I specifically mentioned I know it doesn't. I am providing my own subjective definitions of things, so that you know how I am treating the words - as you seem to be very concerned with word usage. I was not providing them so you can tear apart my definition, just so that you are aware of what I was saying as I was saying it. You are welcome to provide your own definitions, as you did with your definition of a 'good player'.

Moving on to your definition of a good player. You suggest that a good player is one who also works towards the goals of their team. In this case any Healer who is not DPSing in a party that wants them too is a bad player. Is it not?

I should add, that I have personally never told a healer off for not DPSing, and I've never suggested a healeer DPS outside of progression. I am entitled to think other players are bad when I am playing with them, just as they are entitled to think I am bad. They may look at me racing through the dungeon and using sprint between fights and think - wow this guy is a tool and can't enjoy the game. That's totally fine. The issue is when people start harassing each other for these beliefs.

Anyway, you have literally said nothing to the argument that actually adds to anything in a way that may convince someone to 'enjoy the ride'. You've simply stated that while many people want to run faster, many people may want to enjoy the ride. I don't think anyone is arguing this. So basically, we are all just arguing back and forth to the point of not only beating a deadhorse, but wearing away it's bones, that you believe a good healer will sit idly by when no one is taking damage, and I believe a good player will use everything available to them to help them complete the goal under the duty finder message.

The odd thing is that nothing is actually designed so that Healers are actually have to dps to beat the content, save maybe savage but that's it. Obviously we are talking about speed runs and the key problem is SE is so scared to make dungeons hard that community decided to challenge itself. Let that design philosophy seat and fester for a year or so, now we have mandatory pulls of multiple packs and heavy AoE requirements. Healers fall into the latter since they're AoE attacks are so good that it makes dps jealous. The only way to move past this mantra is for SE to make dungeons that require you to be geared and continue to increase the difficulty of those roulette dungeons to accompany those ilvl hikes.

I will say this though, if you don't enjoy dps'ing as a healer consider rolling AST so you can buff the party and help move things along.

the game doesn't need you to DPS outside of savage. This is true, but it also doesn't really need you to heal for half of the time. So you can either be productive during that downtime, or not. Further to this, the game doesn't need me to use things like Raging Strikes and Quelling Strikes ining a dungeon, but I use both on cooldown so that I can make the run go as well as I can. It doesn't need me or the other DPS to limit break in order to clear the content, but it's widely accepted that we do. Sometimes we do more than 'what is needed' in order to help the team. It's a crazy thought.

[ScarletDawn]

I never had to dps in WoW as a Preist, well yes some of the skills dealt both heals and damage but i never needed to...no one ever whined. So why do they whine in this game? Other games like Rift where healers can do both, no one complained when i didnt dps.

[Andrea]

I am really wondering how you are obtaining +likes on your posts. Each of your posts is actually showing complete lack of understanding of the person you are quoting, misrepresenting their words, or bringing in arguments against how they are arguing (though irrelevantly, because of the first two points).

Because the like system on this forum is essentially a circle jerk.

Those who feel Healers are being lazy will like the people with the same opinion.
Those who feel Healers aren't being lazy will obviously like the people with the same opinion.

It doesn't matter how stupid these opinions are (not talking about either you or the person you quoted) they will still like.

Also due to the nature of this forum I feel I should say not all people do this. Just the vast majority of people.

[Whiteroom]

I never had to dps in WoW as a Preist, well yes some of the skills dealt both heals and damage but i never needed to...no one ever whined. So why do they whine in this game? Other games like Rift where healers can do both, no one complained when i didnt dps.

Because despite taking a lot from WoW, this game is not WoW or Rift. That is not a hard concept. If I were to play this game like DCUO, my groups would probably be like "wth are you doing..." No idea why you would assume you can play one game the exact same as another by default.

[Kaurie]

Because the like system on this forum is essentially a circle jerk.

Those who feel Healers are being lazy will like the people with the same opinion.
Those who feel Healers aren't being lazy will obviously like the people with the same opinion.

It doesn't matter how stupid these opinions are (not talking about either you or the person you quoted) they will still like.

Also due to the nature of this forum I feel I should say not all people do this. Just the vast majority of people.

Yeah that is very true, I just think there are many many other posts in this thread from people who do not like healing that are better. If someone states their opinion "I rolled a healer job because I Did not want to DPS". That is a legit reason to not heal. Misquoting and misunderstanding someone to the extent that Niwashi has been is infuriating and to see upvotes just is icing on that cake.

[Lament]

I never had to dps in WoW as a Preist, well yes some of the skills dealt both heals and damage but i never needed to...no one ever whined. So why do they whine in this game? Other games like Rift where healers can do both, no one complained when i didnt dps.

Because this game is not WoW or Rift. It's a different game and a different mentality may apply.

[Andrea]

Yeah that is very true, I just think there are many many other posts in this thread from people who do not like healing that are better. If someone states their opinion "I rolled a healer job because I Did not want to DPS". That is a legit reason to not heal. Misquoting and misunderstanding someone to the extent that Niwashi has been is infuriating and to see upvotes just is icing on that cake.

Personally speaking I have no problem with those who choose to not DPS as a healer. I just don't understand how someone can say that IF you do have time to DPS and you choose not to that it isn't lazy play. Hell I myself have runs where i don't dps because, Im being lazy that day/run. I don't hide the fact that I too am lazy at times. I also don't get people saying "it isn't my job to...." maybe its just me but when I sign up for a duty it doesnt matter what I rolled as my job is to help the group as much as I can.

[Totobi]

This game would be better off without lazy garbage-tier healers who stand there doing nothing but a heal every 10 seconds. Every time i get one in a roulette with me i'll stand in every AoE just to make them work more.