PLD would benefit from the ability to battle raise

[fm_fenrir]

... Why would you fight this? Like are you just that married to suddenly needing to throw a massive chunk of MP directly in the garbage because someone missed a splat?
Paladin having battle-raise is a great idea. Weakness already prevents ANY raise from being OP.

Keeping PLD from accessing swiftcast also means a DPSadin (the only PLD that could really afford to cast Raise) has to spend 8 full seconds casting Raise on the unfortunate DRG who thought he could win a game of chicken with an AOE. That's a pretty significant drop in output for a DPSadin, and it burns half his MP without the benefit of Sheltron rapidly restoring his MP.

[Kumori_Kumo]

snip

Another great point! Yeah I'm thinking about it but just not really coming up with any good reason for them not to have it. Fits lore, fits utility, plenty of hard tradeoffs; seems like a no-brainer.

[Februs]

This could work.

This, or any of the other several hundred suggestions on the forums, would definitely work... but I wouldn't hold my breath that it will be implemented.

This exact same idea has been spat out (sometimes in the near exact same wording) in about a dozen other forums by a hundred other people. The response has always been the same: Ignore it and hope it goes away. The forum community has given enough Pld feedback to SE about how they might improve Pld utility that they could have rebuilt this job from the ground up by now without having to have done any of the actual brainstorming for themselves, but the closest thing we've ever seen at an attempt to make improvements was removing Shield Swipe off the GCD, a relatively small change with a barely noticeable improvement to single target Dps at the expense of Tp conservation.

[Artemiz]

I think it's a great idea, without swiftcast it would be a niche skill at best so I don't think balance would be an issue personally.

[Kosmos992k]

Since PLD can raise outside of battle, it would be very handy to allow them to raise in battle in case this happens, I don't want to make the Job OP, but I feel that it fits in with the lore, and would be handy to have.

Given that we already have the skill, I will never even begin to understand how allowing us to stand still for 6+ seconds to cast it in battle can be considered OP... I've posted on this topic before as well, and completely agree about giving PLD battle raise ability. I don't see any potential for a balance issue, and anyone arguing that this would somehow make PLD a second healer is just way off base IMHO.

[SpookyGhost]

Given that we already have the skill, I will never even begin to understand how allowing us to stand still for 6+ seconds to cast it in battle can be considered OP... I've posted on this topic before as well, and completely agree about giving PLD battle raise ability. I don't see any potential for a balance issue, and anyone arguing that this would somehow make PLD a second healer is just way off base IMHO.

It's not OP in any way, in fact it's largely useless. The dev team would need to implement, test, and balance it correctly which would be a massive waste of time for something that has a niche use when PLD has other problems that need addressing way more than this.

[Kosmos992k]

It's not OP in any way, in fact it's largely useless. The dev team would need to implement, test, and balance it correctly which would be a massive waste of time for something that has a niche use when PLD has other problems that need addressing way more than this.

Implement what? It's a simple trait (that already exists for CNJ) on a skill. How much development and testing do you suppose that requires. As for balance, none is needed, it takes a short glacial age to cast and can be interrupted, like Clemency. Your MT isn't likely to be casting a Battle Raise because of that, so it would primarily be an off tank utility. But with the huge cast time and quite large MP use, it's quite balanced enough already. I'm really suspicious of posters who act like giving PLD the battle raise trait would be some huge ordeal for the Developers, or in any way unbalancing to the game or job.Sometimes I think those negative views of the idea are driven by chauvinism for other jobs rather than analysis of the actual impact.

As for the rest of PLDs problems, Let's take another look at the role of Determination. Determination affects damage output, mitigation strength and the strength of incoming cures. If PLD was traited to allow VIT to boost Detemination, and Determination was not such a minor factor in damage calculations, most of PLDs issues would go away overnight, along with the indecision over whether to choose fending or slaying accessories. Additionally, changing Shield/Sword oath so that they are more fluid in use, and taking that fod awful 15s delay off Shield Swipe would do wonders.

the closest thing we've ever seen at an attempt to make improvements was removing Shield Swipe off the GCD, a relatively small change with a barely noticeable improvement to single target Dps at the expense of Tp conservation.

I know that the theory craft suggests that there is some minor improvement to single target DPS, but I'm not convinced that in actual play, it plays out as predicted. Since you can force blocks pretty effectively, the former Shield Swipe had potential to both boost dps and conserve TP. Now it's of questionable DPS benefit, hurts TP conservation, and ties up two other abilities to force 'proc' the skill as it's cool down ends. I find myself agreeing with those who see the changes to shield swipe as quite detrimental to the skill and job.

[SpookyGhost]

Implement what?

It wouldn't be an OT utility. It would have 2 extremely situational uses:

1.) In a 4man dungeon where you have no SMN, Hallowed and Raise a healer that died for whatever reason instead of wiping and starting over.
2.) In 8man content wherein both healers have died and you have no SMN or the SMN is dead or something, you Raise one of the healers and they try really hard to fix the situation instead of wiping and starting over.

Honestly, sure, implement it, who cares, enjoy your useless crossclass skill being slightly less useless but still ultimately useless. I do not have a clue why PLDs want this so bad, surely focus on... I dunno... your other problems that actually matter and not "can I have this weird niche quality of life change pls?".

As for the rest of PLDs problems, Let's take another look at the role of Determination. Determination affects damage output, mitigation strength and the strength of incoming cures.

Determination only affects damage output.

[fm_fenrir]

your other problems that actually matter

Such as? PLD's main problem is that it has the worst MT DPS, and slightly worse mitigation than DRK in heavy magic fights; in DPSadin mode PLD is comparable to DRK, and has less issues with threat creep because Savage is built into their main DPS rotation. They also maintain access to their self-heal without having to dip back into tank stance, which has been more useful to me than I'd care to admit.

Edit: I don't think you could really improve PLD's MT DPS without changing core features of the job. FOF is mad strong for its uptime, but giving PLD access to something like Maim or Dark side would just make PLD MT insanely strong (since FOF would still be available to PLD).

[Kosmos992k]

It wouldn't be an OT utility. It would have 2 extremely situational uses:

I think it has more than 2 situational uses

1.) In a 4man dungeon where you have no SMN, Hallowed and Raise a healer that died for whatever reason instead of wiping and starting over.

Yes, and? How is this limited? I was not aware that every 4 man group was equipped with a Summoner...or that lacking a summoner was somehow rare.

2.) In 8man content wherein both healers have died and you have no SMN or the SMN is dead or something, you Raise one of the healers and they try really hard to fix the situation instead of wiping and starting over.

Personally, I would rather that a PLD who is off tanking take the time out to raise a healer, than have the DPS loss of a Summoner doing the same thing.
Your entire attitude says that a) you won't play PLD, and b) you don't like it either way. You're so dismissive of the ability, and yet you speak out against the idea. Why do you care if you care so little about PLD and those who play it?

Determination only affects damage output.

Nope. It' is part of the calculation of enmity for Flash, and it also affects incoming cures.

I can't produce a link, but I remember reading (a long time ago) that in addition to impacting the damage done by weapon skills it also factored into anything that STR was used to calculate, so it had an impact on damage blocked and parried. I can't find that link, so I'll have to leave that one where is lays, although logically, it *should* affect both. However since DET's role was nerfed with 3.0, it's entirely possible that even if it did affect blocking/parrying before now, it no longer does.