[GM] Please take notice. Make statement on housing.

[ApolloGenX]

Players are going to play the game. If the game is poorly designed, don't blame the players- fix the game.

[ExKage]

Players are going to play the game. If the game is poorly designed, don't blame the players- fix the game.

That's a very righteous way to live your life. Now the games' rules may be saying you can't play like that. Players can gtfo if they do not want to play with the rules or converse in a manner in which they might see change the rules again. Just like finding the right sports league you want to participate in.

[Purrfectstorm]

Some thoughts:

1) People are "in denial" about selling plots for gil being against ToS because it is counterintuitive and not explicitly mentioned in ToS, housing patch notes, or in Dev Posts. There are a lot of people upset that players are buying plots before they can get to them and then reselling them. Those players obviously don't want players doing this, so they have motivation to twist things to suit their own wants. To be fair, the players selling houses ALSO have the motivation to see things how they want too, but the burden of proof really is on those trying to demonstrate that selling plots for gil is not allowed.

2) I think it is wrong to characterize house sellers as "greedy" for a number of reasons. First, greed is defined as wanting more of something than is needed. At first blush, selling plots seems greedy, because no one needs 2 houses. But no one needs anything in this game (technically speaking). And plots = gil and gil can be used to buy things that are needed (in a less technical interpretation). For example, a player isn't selling a plot just for the sake of screwing someone else over or watching their gil numbers inflate; gil is used for minions, materia, and other items that players may feel they need. Housing furniture and deeds are physical commodities that can be sold and many non-physical commodities are sold also (such as content wins). It is intuitive that plots would be allowable for sale as well especially since the community has never been told otherwise. Even really sketchy sales like the wedding bands where real money was being converted into gil were only "frowned upon" by SE staff NOT disallowed in any way (to the best of my recollection).

3) Players who sell plots aren't doing anything unfair. Anybody can make enough gil for housing. Anybody can camp housing wards or check them repeatedly. Players who did not have enough gil for housing or did not bother to keep an eye on relinquished plots have no right to get mad at players who DID make the effort to do these things. The real problem is that there is not enough housing to meet the demand. Players SHOULD be upset about this. But direct the blame where it's warranted, at the developers of this system, not at the players who are simply playing the game in a logical manner:

- Gil is the main currency of the game
- It is used for all sorts of things - past, present, and future
- It takes time to make gil
- Selling plots takes the least time
- Therefore I'll sell plots to have the most desired items in the least amount of time

4) Selling for "insane" prices. Prices are only insane if no one pays it. Supply is low, demand is high. These things drive pricing. If players couldn't get 20m for a small plot (I have no idea what people are selling houses for, this is a made up number) then they wouldn't try to sell small plots. If a player DOES buy a house for a large mark-up, they at least have a house vs. the large part of the player base that does not. It seems pretty sane to me to prefer to be a Have rather than a Have-Not. Further, both the buyer and seller mutually agreed to the terms so it is not unfair. Sure, the buyer would always prefer to pay less and the seller would always prefer to get more. This does not make either side "greedy," just rationally self-interested.

5) Players SHOULD be able to buy houses with alts, whether for resale or not. Playing the game with an alt character is a completely different experience. You can start fresh in every way: different race, different main job, different name, different FC, different server, different everything. There are a lot of reasons someone might make an alt and most of those reasons suggest that that alt should be allowed to own its own house because that alt is a DIFFERENT "person." One reason, making an alt JUST to buy a house, deserves special mention because it seems to be mostly what upsets people. I'm not a huge fan of people doing this myself BUT disallowing alts from buying housing for resale prevents alts from buying housing just for the different game experience. In practice, SE could not make the distinction between someone using an alt in one manner vs. someone using an alt in another manner. Besides, alts are a classic way of storing additional items and making additional gil, in all MMOs since forever. So it would be counterintuitive and work against having/playing/paying for alts in the first place.

6) Gardening. MANY players want housing for access to gardening. Why? Gardening has more exclusive items that can be used for mats or resold for sometimes LOTS of gil. This is motivation enough to have access to housing. If gardening wasn't tied to housing, there probably still wouldn't be enough housing but the demand WOULD go down. I myself have a large FC house and I would keep that garden or not. Airships are tied to it, chocobo stables are tied to it, crafting tables are tied to it, and convenience is tied to it. However, I don't have a single piece of furniture in my personal house and wouldn't have even bought it if not for the fact that I wanted to farm those sweet gardening items. SE could reduce some of the demand for housing by making it possible to garden without a house (instead in the inn or FC room perhaps). In fact, SE said that it was working on this. SE could also make the gardening items less valuable (this would suck imo) but so far gardening items have been used for minions, choco leveling, and crafting mats. These things are in demand so gardening is in demand. Now I think making these items less important is a bad direction to take the game because as a developer you shouldn't be working on ways to make game systems less rewarding for players. What needs to happen in my view is for expanded access to these features.

7) Lastly, if selling plots for gil is banned... a) Players will still do it (high demand for a product often leads to illicit behaviors). And b) The players who won't still do it will just sit on the houses they already bought AND they should! There is no incentive for them to give the houses up (I saw in another thread that players expected this LOL LOL LOL!) Let's flip the situation. If you paid a lot for something and you could not sell it (like you had wanted) but could still extract some value out of it (e.g. gardening), would you try to extract that value or just give it up FOR NO GOOD REASON!

In summary, the whole housing fiasco is the fault of Devs who released this system and couldn't meet player demand. Yes, players are buying plots JUST to resell (I'm not one of them btw). But why wouldn't they? It's easy gil and the buyer is getting a product that they really want and could get no other way (and giving up a currency that has limited usefulness outside of housing/vanity anyway). Believe what you want but players aren't doing it JUST to be d-bags to you AND they're NOT doing anything unfair. You just don't LIKE it. However, that doesn't make it wrong. So please refrain from bashing your fellow players and throwing words like "greedy" around. Let's just make our voices heard about increasing housing accessibility. The Devs have already stated they are working on this. Maybe this will be a broken promise, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt for now, and call them out if/when it is broken or not fulfilled in a timely fashion.

We as a community shouldn't turn on ourselves.

[Preypacer]

Every bit as flawed as saying flipping houses is a grief tactic and monopolization. Every bit as flawed as saying "I want the plot next to my FC house, but another FC is monopolizing it."

Okay, so you're just throwing around strawman arguments and making false equivalences now.

Got it.

Let me know if/when you're interested in having an honest discussion/debate. Thanks.

[Mycow8me]

Some thoughts:

Y'all are just greedy admit it already. I don't care about the fact that your buying houses and reselling them or you need a house for your alt, dog, and occasional pigeon that visits on Tuesdays. You guys took a bad situation and made it worse for your own benefit uncaring of the "community" you seem to be reaching out to. Period.

I've stated before already though. I managed to find some friends with a small house who will actually let me participate in its construction and decorating. I honestly just feel lucky though. This isn't possible for everyone, some people have trouble making friends or are in a large FC with an inner circle. Gonna just continue waiting for SE to somehow make this situation right and stop complaining already cause they know its a mess, everyone knows its a mess. Nothings going to change any time soon.

I'm sure the RMT are loving all of this.

[BigRed5392]

Why does that screenshot look like a one sided conversation?

I was there. I saw Azazura's conversation with the GM about the housing thing. She has tells turned off due to the RMT spam, so her side of the conversation doesnt appear in the tab with the GM. she was reporting a separate thing from a dungeon and decided to ask the GM about the housing situation.

[StouterTaru]

I don't even know how to describe your attitude except poor. You're only in here to try and troll. Stay on topic. This is not about the market board or ONE player who has ONE house. This is about multiple people buying plots and reselling them for insane amounts and whether it is against the ToS.

And the reasons people are stating as to why it's against the ToS could be applied to anything someone else does that you don't like.

Stating an opinion that you disagree with isn't trolling or griefing either. If something that you subjectively disagree with annoys you that much, you are griefing yourself.

[ExKage]

I was there. I saw Azazura's conversation with the GM about the housing thing. She has tells turned off due to the RMT spam, so her side of the conversation doesnt appear in the tab with the GM. she was reporting a separate thing from a dungeon and decided to ask the GM about the housing situation.

Um, how were you able to see a conversation in /tells? Are you roommates?

[Culfinrandir]

I was there. I saw Azazura's conversation with the GM about the housing thing. She has tells turned off due to the RMT spam, so her side of the conversation doesnt appear in the tab with the GM. she was reporting a separate thing from a dungeon and decided to ask the GM about the housing situation.

GM Tells can never be excluded by changing settings, AFAIK. This is to ensure that you can't claim "oh, I had tells off" or "oh, I was in FC chat". They will appear anywhere you are in game, even when communication outside of your immediate party isn't possible (like dungeons). That is how you get a "one sided GM conversation".

[ApolloGenX]

That's a very righteous way to live your life. Now the games' rules may be saying you can't play like that. Players can gtfo if they do not want to play with the rules or converse in a manner in which they might see change the rules again. Just like finding the right sports league you want to participate in.

I don't have one house, much less more than one.

I just think that "changing the rules" - especially where account bans are concerned is an incredibly bad way to handle a design oversight. Fix the problem... don't expect players to fix it for you. No legit game is one where the rules keep changing... it's like finding a sports league- then they keep changing the rules... that is novice and no one would play that mess. Especially if they create a player behavior by their design... allow it to go on for a period of time without taking action- then suddenly change the rules and threaten account bans? Way to go, punish players for your mistake.

Remember- These are the same people that put up massive gating roadblocks because "Players can't be trusted to take their time with content"... so why would they expect players not to capitalize on a system? Makes zero sense.