Does Tank Stance mean you're "bad?"

[Melian]

I'm fairly certain the argument is that one of the tanks should've attempted to get aggro back and once aggro was settled they could all go back to their business as usual.

Yeah. I got that too. I just don't see how it's an argument. I mean, if you're tanking and not holding hate..... fix it. Don't try to deeps instead. For everyone that's not a DD adding dps adds to your functionality, but it doesn't give you functionality. Always be doing your thing first. Arguing that a tank should be in offensive stance despite loosing hate is like arguing that a whm should stay in cleric stance and spam holy despite the tanks dying. It's a great thing to do when the tank's aren't dying, but if they are.... stop.

At any rate, I don't think I've ever seen anyone make that argument about healing. Which is why I'm sort of baffled it would come up in regards to tanking. It just seems so self-evident that fulfilling basic responsibilities should come first....

Anyways, fair enough as far as everything else you said goes. And I do agree that you should be trying to make the most of your job, if only because that's more or less where the fun in this game comes from (imo, at least). And yes, you certainly can take what I said and allow it to snowball to absurdity if so inclined. In an ideal world, people are (and should be) doing the best job possible 100% of the time, and that certainly involves using different stances if you're a tank.

PS: I think what irritates me is that people take situations from serious instances, and apply that logic to everything in the game. This is how you (somehow....) end up with tanks in non-serious instances who genuinely think that it's more important to be pushing dps than doing their basic job. Pushing new content is one thing, and doing the void ark in a DF party is another thing. What works best in one isn't necessarily the best, and certainly isn't needed, in the other. I would rather have an all vitality i190 tank in the Void Ark that knows mechanics and never dies than a full-time offensive stance tank in 210 strength gear who isn't keeping hate, but is admirably managing to pull the damage of a weaker DD (or a tank that's bouncing around aoe doom stuff in WoD, or what have you) . Any day. Basic mechanics are basic, but they're much more important than a small dps increase in basic situations.

[Soraki-Muppe]

The BRD that ninja pulled is an idiot, the healer that called a tank bad for using a tank-stance is an idiot, if there was a nin that could have used their nice little skill on one of the tanks but didn´t then that nin is also an idiot. If there was no nin around then one of the tanks should have pulled in tank-stance and if they planed on not doing that then they are idiots aswell, sure I have heard the argument that you should do it without, but this have been from people who fail to understand that grabbing agro in tankstance and then swithing to dps stance makes for a way more stable pull during which dps can go all out instead of watching the agrometer or risk pulling it. Also can someone please tell bards to stop with their ninjapulling of shit? And when we are on that subject, please ask the healers why healing the tank seems to be an afterthought these days.

[Azzalin]

Opening Words, first post.

Knowing when you use your tank stance and when to swap into your offensive stance is part of being good in that role.

In this particular instance, you stepped up to the plate to be the MT when no one else wanted to. You needed your tank stance to generate the required enmity to hold aggro against those with higher overall ilvls.

Because the boss was no longer running around randomly and bouncing between people, DPS that required positionals were able to do more damage, thus increasing the overall efficiency of the group.

If talking about other content? Evaluate as needed.

[Immut]

Depends. If you're in a tank stance and not actually tanking, yes you are instantly bad and also dumb.

As a main tank, Warriors can easily deliverance all of void ark with no problems. Dark Knights can drop grit for most of the fights too. Paladin is going to want to stay in shield oath almost the whole time because their threat generation is fucking garbage. I can, will, and have ripped hate off any paladin that thinks they can actually use sword oath unless they massively outgear me or I fuck up my opener again. And when I do I will make you feel bad about it, because i won't give it back til I'm dead.

That said, that DRK was a boss. He stepped up when nobody else would and should've gotten 23 commends. That kind of situational awareness is rare in this game. And yes i'm saying "doing your job" is rare in this game.

[Joe_Schmoe]

Does Tank Stance mean you're "bad?"

I have yet to get lvl 30 on this guy, but from what little I know about it (seems like they work the way arms warriors in WoW used to work ie "stance dancing".) my response would probably be....... I used to have a manager that said "If I have to help stock [groceries], I'm gonna be short a stocker". I guess I'd see it that way here as well. If I had to switch to DPS stance, that's not meant as a compliment.

[Alahra]

But yeah, basically, if you can push group DPS without getting yourself killed, you should and by choosing not to do it then you're only hurting your group. This is the case for every job, including healers. A lot of people don't like it, but a lot of people shouldn't be raiding.

To be fair, it's only been recently (post-HW) that DPS checks got so stringent as to put a significant value on tank and healer DPS in raids. To say that people who prefer that older style "shouldn't be raiding" as a general statement is a bit broad. They probably shouldn't be doing Gordias Savage, but raiding has only required that attitude for one raid tier (and it seems the next raid tier is going to be going back to the level of difficulty we saw in ARR).

[SpookyGhost]

To be fair, it's only been recently (post-HW) that DPS checks got so stringent as to put a significant value on tank and healer DPS in raids.

If you're raiding, you're a part of a group. Piece to a puzzle. Probably went over this in the other post, don't have time to check right now. Strict DPS checks or not, contributing DPS to the group in any way that you can is a responsibility you have on your shoulders as someone who is able to provide +group DPS. By actively not contributing said +group DPS, you are being a detriment to your group's progress. There's a difference between raiding and eventually getting around to the content when it's been nerfed backwards and forwards. If you're raiding, you should keep in mind that the goal is to kill the boss and if you can help with that in any possible way, you should - this can be with proper mitigation, proper healing, or more DPS. Due to the way that ARR/HW is built, tanks and healers are both capable of providing high group DPS without getting themselves or others killed, and if you're intent on raiding then you should keep that in mind.

[Spiroglyph]

Using tank stance doesn't make you bad. Knowing when you need to use it is actually part of being good.

^ this is everything you need to know in regards to your post, OP.

[Opus]

What's better for 4-man DF trash pulls?

A) Never go off Grit. Pull and Unleash. Do a quick AoE burst. Then do weak non-DA combos. This lets healer do max DPS as they don't have to worry about me.

B) Pull and Unleash in Grit. Off Grit and Blood Weapon. AoE burst later. Do DA-combos. Usually healer has to start healing me sooner this way.

It's either me doing more damage or the healer. I feel A) just seems more straightforward, less finger gymnastics. So I tend to do A. When I play WHM, I feel I'm able to do more damage spamming Stone III consistently than DRK.

I'm less experienced as DRK so feel free to enlighten me!

[Karatecatgrl]

To put things in perspective, I was running T9 clears for people.

There was a Drk who couldn't hold hate as a solo tank to the 11k dps blm. So I agree to go Warrior to handle the hate.

To keep Nael from dropping hate in unsync, I had to be in Defiance, then pop Infuiate, Unchained, Tomahawk, Provoke, Butcher Block Combo as my opening pull because otherwise I'd lose hate.... The blm ilvl 200+, I was ilvl168?

So all and all its about knowing and reading the situation. I knew I was out geared so I needed tank stance to accommodate them. It's not being bad by any means. It's about knowing and playing your role.