Why is "It's something to do" apparently a valid defense?

[Alahra]

It's a bit of both. I feel like they trimmed out the parts that were well received by the playerbase (such as the intial relic quest and practically everything attached to that) and tossed it aside

It's a mix of both, yeah.

And they were going to disappoint some players no matter what. While I loved that Titan HM was part of the original 2.0 relic, I know several players that hated it. I also didn't like how short the Relic felt originally, as it made them ultimately feel "cheap" after I had one for every level 50 job, and it's as a result of feedback along those lines that we got the Relic+Zodiac extended grind in ARR and the present Anima questline.

The Relic 2.0 quest was not universally loved, so to say that they tossed out something "the players" liked is a bit inaccurate. Some players liked it, but enough other players didn't like it that they went in another direction.

[Kallera]

Then people need to present their arguments in this way and actually be constructive with what they're saying. From what I've seen, most people are mindlessly ranting, have some kind of issue with the players who enjoy the content and then finally realise if they're going to get anywhere they need to back up their argument, after already spouting about SE defenders and white knights. This isn't going to help their argument in any way. Of course it works both ways too and there's people with the opposite argument doing the same thing.

If people really thought about what they were saying before writing it, there would probably be a lot less drama going on.

You been going on about this slight against people that aren't even accusing you of white knighting for about 3 days. There have been numerous threads and posts here and in the quests forum discussing the relic quests' shortcomings in detailed fashion. All fully available for even you to discuss in. Self appointing yourself as mod and attempting to regulate behavior(in a biased fashion, at that) is not necessary.

Methinks thou doth protest too much.

[Critical-Limit]

Alright let's try to be constructive?

I'd like negative people to post what they might consider fun, or if not fun, what would make the grind worth it?

For positive people, is there anyway for this grind to be fun for those upset, without hurting what you like about the current state of the quest.
Also if you can think of a way to make it even more fun what are your ideas?

I personally think for the hardcore people they should've made an extreme version of chimera or hydra fights, optional. Where it's pretty hard but mastered can get you those parts a little quicker. That let's the people who don't like hard content continue on the easier but slightly more grindier path.

[RiceisNice]

it. I also didn't like how short the Relic felt originally, as it made them ultimately feel "cheap" after I had one for every level 50 job, and it's as a result of feedback along those lines that we got the Relic+Zodiac extended grind in ARR and the present Anima .

You'd have to consider that at the time, base relic would be severely merged by the passage of time. You had weekly lock in the times required, and the crafting matierals were not abundent since they were dungeon drop

[Lambdafish]

Alright let's try to be constructive?

I'd like negative people to post what they might consider fun, or if not fun, what would make the grind worth it?

For positive people, is there anyway for this grind to be fun for those upset, without hurting what you like about the current state of the quest.
Also if you can think of a way to make it even more fun what are your ideas?

I personally think for the hardcore people they should've made an extreme version of chimera or hydra fights, optional. Where it's pretty hard but mastered can get you those parts a little quicker. That let's the people who don't like hard content continue on the easier but slightly more grindier path.

I think it would be nice if bismark and ravana (NM and EX), and even the CT raids could have been included in phase 3, I would love to get back into that content, and ultimately, I think the more variety that phase 3 could bring, the better. Also I feel that smoothing out the UI for the quest would go a long way to increase my enjoyment, by this I mean that the quest feels very overwhelming when I have to repeatedly check a guide as to how many clears I need, or how many items I need, and because there is so much stuff in so many places it makes the whole thing seem clunky.

On top of this, a big nerf should be seen to the crafting section of the quest, because thats not a grind, thats a gate that requires you to shell out an arbitrary amount of gil to the MB (not a grind because the amount isn't set, and can be abused by the community), have friends that are uber crafters (not always possible), or somehow make them yourself with all 8 specialist crafts (even if you have crafts leveled... good luck with that). I'm ok with the crafts being there, but it would be a lot more appealling if it was 1 or 2 of each instead of 4.

I feel that the grind would feel a lot easier with these ideas implemented

[kog985]

Maybe some of you guys need to play China MMO or Korea MMO for a long while to understand how the current state of FFXIV doesn't have much different than any those two, and what serious problem FFXIV need to recognize before it keeps falling down slowly year by year, and also to understand why "whining" people like us keep complaining something more better from FFXIV that itself, can, do more better instead of its current state.

We "whining" because we want it to be more good and we know it has more potential and can change, that is why we keep "whining" because of that reason. If your children being bad, you teach them and guide them to become a good person, because everyone want that to their children, right? No one want to see them become a thief or a serial killer at all. That is what we are doing the same thing to FFXIV. We have a lot of hope to FFXIV and to Yoshi-P and to SE.

Grinding is not a content, what we need from a content is always new and not repeat what old generation has done (the current example is ATMAs and Crystals, ATMAs is daddy and Crystals is his son). Relic can fix itself from not repeating the same old road like right now, but the development doesn't want to because if they want to change it, they ALREADY SHOWED us its new face from the day patch 3.15 note hit to the player base. What reason we can say to the development? Being not creative or being lazy in creative?

Diablo III has become a good example whenever I talked about how the game is become bad to good. Forum have a lot of dedication players that keep bringing out bad things and problems in the game to the development, and the development did listening and show to the player base their listening. What about FFXIV? Tbh I haven't seen that for quite a long time. Because if FFXIV did listening and showed to us, we will say "Wow! Amazing" or "You did a good job!" instead of "Whining" like this.

So before you guys saying those weak reasoning to us, I mean it, please think a bit more deeper. Us players love the game and want to see it become more better, that is why we raised our voice and will still raise our voice. If we doesn't care about it, we already left or abandon the game and doesn't wasted our times with you guys that really didn't see a single problem at this moment.

P/S: But i also have a little doubt to FFXIV because it's a Asia game, not a Europe or NA game, so I myself cannot say anything to the grinding because it was already in our Asian blood, we don't mind the grinding to be honest, but only if that the game came from our place (China MMO and Korea MMO). So no matter how hard i beg for them to not follow this road, i still know it will keep coming in the future and the future after that.

tl;dr: There isn't a tl;dr, start understanding for your own.

[Kallera]

Worth it:
A weapon that has something unique in addition its stats.(looks only go so far, when you ask a lot of people, eventually they'll want the weapon performance to match as well. And for 12's sake, did ya have to copy paste the number across all the weapons? Did ya think the folks that found out the maps in 1.0 wouldn't check?)
A weapon that isn't just tossed if it needs to be broke down for a new weapon. (That has to hurt for some folks, and kills the urge to customize)
Talking weapon? Can we talk to it?


Fun:
Doing a relic trial at some point that tests the skill of our role. A solo "gatekeeper" type trial would be ideal, but i can see a party trial working too.
Utilizing spiritbond or companion system to level up the weapon or give it that extra oomph in customizing.
Talking weapon? Can we talk to it and take it with us for its quips?
If older df runs are needed: alternative objective needed past clearing it(or a instance using the map begins after clearing it...)
If ex trials are needed: runner must lead a set party, stipulation akin to the primal wheel of doom at fanfest. (later on this can be nerfed to include standard primal ex runs.)

I'm open to other stuff, but mainly the end result should be something to look foward to, and maybe something we can take with us, because right now there not much that makes the relic stand out, it honestly sounds like a bad deal, not merely one born of Rowena and Gerolt to the main character, but one from SE to the players.

Grind or challenge, I think it has to have something interesting. Add something new or beyond the run we know too well, that would be of interest.

[Alahra]

You'd have to consider that at the time, base relic would be severely merged by the passage of time. You had weekly lock in the times required, and the crafting matierals were not abundent since they were dungeon drop

I was there at the time, I've been playing since relaunch. The time investment for the original Relic Reborn quest wasn't anywhere near that of any step that followed. Even learning Titan itself didn't take all that long. The 2.0 Relic Quest was a lot more like the Tomestone weapons from 2.2 and 2.4 in terms of investment than it was anything else. The materials weren't incredibly rare either as WP was a pretty common dungeon for tomestone farming.

It was 3 weeks of tomestones to get the i90 version (900 Mythology), and the prior step wasn't week-locked at all. So you could have the i80, base relic within 2 hours of hitting 50 if you already had a level 50 job to prep the tomestones with. The first job obviously took longer, as you had to gear up first for Titan, but the 2.0 Relic was less about deciding "Okay, this is my main," and a lot more about thinking "I guess I need a good starter weapon for my new job" because the effort needed was so much less than it would be in the future.

This led to two avenues of complaints: one coming from raiders who felt T5 wasn't worth it (it originally only gave i90 weapons itself), and the other from (I have to assume) FFXI players who wanted the Relic to "mean something" as it were.

[RiceisNice]

It was 3 weeks of tomestones to get the i90 version (900 Mythology), and the prior step wasn't week-locked at all. So you could have the i80, base relic within 2 hours of hitting 50 if you already had a level 50 job to prep the tomestones with. The first job obviously took longer, as you had to gear up first for Titan, but the 2.0 Relic was less about deciding "Okay, this is my main," and a lot more about thinking "I guess I need a good starter weapon for my new job" because the effort needed was so much less than it would be in the future.

Getting the base relic always did seem like something to get your alt job started, considering that at the time, there was no way to gain weapons from tomestones alone (which only begun with tomestones of law and poetics after 2.5). Eithercase, it's definitely not the case now since people are straight up getting alt weapons from law tomestones or even primal tokens. The 2.0 relics was something I looked forward to in order to get my job started, if only it's to get a title and a weapon that would match the identity of my job. And once you were beyond the first step and the amount of time investment needed to get it going, you pretty much would invest your time on the relic you were getting your main for.

This led to two avenues of complaints: one coming from raiders who felt T5 wasn't worth it (it originally only gave i90 weapons itself), and the other from (I have to assume) FFXI players who wanted the Relic to "mean something" as it were.

This is more on itemization for the item drops rather than an issue with relic specifically (at the very least, it's a far stretch to blame the relic as the source of the problem, versus the raid giving lower leveled rewards). IMO the relic is fine the way it is as far as ilvl is concerned (and I do wish they would incorporate raiding elements into it to justify it being BiS or equal to raid gear). Beyond that though, it really does feel like all it is a weapon model at times...especially when I got the yoichi bow on my BRD

[Kaurie]

Alright let's try to be constructive?

I'd like negative people to post what they might consider fun, or if not fun, what would make the grind worth it?

1. Release 170 (make it 180) item at 3.0 Launch, have three options to obtain it:
1. 10x Bismark EX clears to obtain (using the current bismark tokens) Bismark Weapons were already obsolete on arrival and this would not have changed that
2. Current fate ATMA 2.0 - great we get to level our 2nd classes right from the get go
3. Zeta turn in

2. Release 200 Weapon at launch of Alex Savage and Esoterics:
1. 10x Ravana EX clears (using the current hive tokens) With esoterics weapons launching at this time, Hive weapons were soon to be obsolete
2. Grind the same dungeons currently listed

3. Release 210 Weapon on launch of 3.15
1. 10x Thordan EX clears This would effectively make the Thordan weapon obsolete; however, you would need to have had a relic up to this point and clear Thordan 10x minimum as oppose to a potential drop of a 205 weapon
2. Similar system to now, cut down the amounts from 20 to 5 each, allow for Grand Company Seals and Wolf Marks as usable currency
#. Remove crafting pieces requirement