Is it pointless to lvl Paladin?

[Donjo]

Heh, don't worry Isius. The Tank Balance topic is old to us as well, so there's no hard feelings for a rant here or there. It happens.

But that whole enmity thing. I feel like it's more important than some people think. We know for sure that out of the Tanks, Paladin needs its Tank Stance for enmity far more than the others do. Let's not get into anything about needing it for mitigation right meow :3

This, at least to me, makes a specific and potentially vitally important question pop up in my head. The current key to maximizing Main Tank DPS is, of course, treating the Tank Stance like cancer and avoiding its use at all costs. While Paladins would still lose in a "Tank Stance DPS onry" contest, the reason they're very far behind instead of kind of far behind is they need that Tank Stance enmity more, Ninjas notwithstanding.

So, the question: Is the practice of Tanking in DPS Stances something that the devs anticipated, expected, or intended? They have formally condoned Healer DPS as a thing groups can employ to help with undergeared clears, but I have yet to see/find a precise statement on Full Strength Tanks or DPS Stance Tanking. They've only spoken about melded accessories... as a reason that they're "recalculating Tank Damage". Hmm.

The reason this question is important is that the answer would change the angle at which we're looking at balance here. If the answer is that DPS Stance Tanking was not intended, then Paladin is the Tank producing the most correct amount of enmity and the ability of the others to hold monsters relatively easily without it is indicative of them producing more enmity than intended. If the answer is that DPS Stance Tanking is intended, then the views of many forum goers are correct and Paladin's lesser ability to slip into their DPS Stance is a genuine design deficiency. For what it's worth, my money is on "not intended". I feel like the deliberate clunkiness of the Stances on Paladin and Dark Knight is telling.

So, yeah. Perspective and all that. I wonder if there's a chance of Yoshi-P mentioning this stuff during the live letter on Christmas Eve Eve? Eh... probably not. Making sure us kitties can /doze properly is obviously more important!

[Alisane]

I agree with Ragology... Unless you are really pushing whatever-first raiding, it's not going to make a difference. What WILL make a big difference is if you play a tank class that you don't enjoy as much because others say it's "bad". I like PLD and I don't let that stop me from playing it. If you're a number cruncher and like to spend three minutes whacking the dummy and comparing what comes out to the other tanks, you may be disappointed. If you have never done that, then what is the real downside for you? Content dies... Whether it is 30 sec or a minute sooner than a WAR tank or whatever.

And karma happens... PLD was top dog once upon a time! It all evens out in the end.

[Phoenicia]

Okay I edited my earlier post with correct figures, I did fat finger a 5 instead of 8 on the Number pad, I just don't know how that carried over to the rest of the calculations. lol

Even though I was trying to reassure the OP that enmity "is not an issue", I did, by no means at all, not mean to say PLD is "perfectly fine" as it is. Its enmity "non-issues" against DPS in tank stance still does not solve its enmity issues if the PLD dares try to DPS without a Ninja feeding it enmity every 3 minutes.

That said, for all intents and purposes, PLD's enmity is fine if its objective is to hold aggro for a party in 4-mans for example. But if the PLD tries to push DPS against competent players (DPS and off-tanks), PLD WILL have issues because of PLD's inherently low enmity causing it to more time on enmity generation by resorting to lower DPS/potency Halone combos in ShO. I would definitely love to see PLD's enmity pushed up to be in line with the other tanks. If buffing Halone causes a problem in 50 and under sync'd content, then give the PLD something to make up for it above 60. I'd suggest small multipliers on Goring or RA. A double multiplier would be just enough to hold hate when coupled with other enmity generators but not enough to cause a problem when in Sword Oath.

I also mentioned in my earlier post that PLD's mitigation is not (far) ahead of the other tanks, if at all. Yes, WAR can burst mitigate "better" than PLD in some situations (specially against magical damage), however, PLD is far more reliable than WAR due to more lax timing and stronger effects. PLD is as reliable as it gets when it comes to mitigation. The PLD can do everything a tank needs to do, for the most part.

I don't think I have much to add to my earlier post, since I said play the class you enjoy the most in there. And that a class you're passionate about will probably push you to get creative with and push its limits over a class you do not like where you would end up spending the least effort as long as it gets the minimum desired result.

[Jim_Berry]

PLD is my go-to tank, even before Heavensward when I had PLD and WAR at 50. My PLD is Lv60 while WAR is Lv51. I am more confident as PLD and have a higher survival rate. True, PLDs are frowned up, but I still like it. I almost made it my main.

[Jim_Berry]

*SNIP*

Any Pld using more Flash spams than a Drk using Unleash or even a War's Overpower is not rotating their Hate combo efficiently enough.

*SNIP*

What about, if, say, all your DPS is soloing their own mob, burning every CD, while being better-geared? Flash, my man, has helped me control that situation many times.

[fm_fenrir]

What about, if, say, all your DPS is soloing their own mob, burning every CD, while being better-geared? Flash, my man, has helped me control that situation many times.

Flash does a fraction of the threat management Halone or Circle of Scorn does, though. It's fine for suppressing a mob long enough to put Halone on it, but it absolutely won't hold off a SMN who's burning every CD on his bar during a trash pull. I only use Flash to hold stuff that isn't being actively focused, which suppresses healer and Shadow Flare threat, but if someone decides to actively target one of those mobs, Flash just isn't enough.

[AI_wass]

Flash does a fraction of the threat management...Circle of Scorn does

But that's dead wrong. Circle of Scorn is 300 potency enmity with another 150 potency over the next 15 seconds. Flash is straight-up 500 potency enmity.

[Februs]

Okay I edited my earlier post with correct figures, I did fat finger a 5 instead of 8 on the Number pad, I just don't know how that carried over to the rest of the calculations. lol

It happens lol. Sometimes when you're looking at something in front of you, you just roll with it.

For all intents and purposes, PLD's enmity is fine if its objective is to hold aggro for a party in 4-mans for example.

If we're talking sheer usability, then yeah this is true. I still run my Pld all the time. I never lose aggro, and I don't think I'm really holding back the Dps all that much, despite how clunky and inefficient Oath swapping can be. It's not like I run with the cream of the crop when it comes to PF PuG groups, so I definitely don't attribute Dps checks purely to the Dps rocking 100% of the dmg. So, even in Raid or Extreme level content, when it comes to Pld's, they are far from unusable.

That being said, out of all of the jobs in the game they are the one job that is in the greatest need for some adjustments. As far as enmity goes, your suggestions would be a welcomed change. Another idea is adding a post 50 trait that somehow boosts enmity or modifies Shield Oath could work. Heck, even modifying the effects of any of Pld's numerous niche use CD's (Cover, Tempered Will, etc) or slapping on an additional effect to RA (which is suspiciously absent of any effect at all, at the moment) would work fine. It's not like Pld's are asking for SE to completely overhaul the job. Just a little bit of spit-shine would be nice, especially considering the tremendous attention they have already given to both War and Drk (more the former than the later).

[Februs]

What about, if, say, all your DPS is soloing their own mob, burning every CD, while being better-geared? Flash, my man, has helped me control that situation many times.

Any other horrible circumstances you want to throw in there? lol. There's still room for the healer to be over healing everyone in the party with medica II and cure III spams lol.

Jokes aside, in the case that literally everything that could be going wrong is going wrong, then yes, burning an additional Flash or two can keep control in an otherwise unruly situation. I'm not saying Flash is not useful or shouldn't be exploited. Obviously if the situation calls for it then you should use it, but Flash spams (a tired tradition in Pld mob tanking) is not the optimal way of Pld tanking in a mob pull... and honestly, in this kind of situation even a War or Drk might want to pop off an extra AoE to be on the safe side, so really it's not all that Pld specific of a problem.

I've had pulls exactly like this, and I still don't spam Flash to keep enmity. The only thing that might actually force an extra Flash or two is if the Dps out-gear you by a substantial amount, or if the pull is very large. If the number of mobs you are tanking exceed your ability to split enmity fast enough to hold aggro, then an extra Flash is definitely necessary (especially if you have an AoE spamming caster), but that still only means one additional Flash per maybe every two additional mobs over the Mob size by which a Pld can effectively split enmity on (which is roughly 5 for a Pld using a full enmity rotation, assuming each enmity granting move hits a new target).

This is a lot harder to do now that they have eliminated the Shield Swipe exploit by taking it off the GCD (adding a tiny bit to Boss Dps at the expense of Mob enmity and Mob Dps), but it's definitely doable. It just requires a lot more attention that Drk's and War's. You have to be conscious of how many (1)targets you have, (2)how many you can actually hit with an enmity strike in a single rotation, (3)how many peripheral targets will be missed thereby requiring CoS/Flash, (4)which targets require preferential treatment due to Dps actions, and then (5)making a judgment on whether or not you have enough enmity to start rotating GB instead of RoH. Tanking like this is means increasing your output, but constantly living at the edge of your own enmity. By comparison, rotating regular Flashes is a lot easier, but you wouldn't be optimizing your role by over-relying on it.

[Kaeoni]

I personally enjoy Drk and War more than Pld simply because holding threat is far easier, freeing me up to do other more constructive things like Dmg, healing, dmg mitigation, ect. I feel like when I'm on Pld, i'm being constantly rushed to keep up with the DPS, that I'm never ahead enough to be comfortable and that I'm constantly out of TP if I'm pulling too quickly. I'm by no means the best tank in the world. But since all 3 classes are aesthetically pleasing to me and perhaps because of my own play-style I enjoy War and Drk far more. This decision has nothing to do with High end content and how much better or worse one class is to another. They just feel more fluid and well thought out. My pld is only like 53 or something, But I quit playing it because I wasn't enjoying myself. Imo just pick the one you enjoy the most. It's competent, just not my jam.