FFXIV and Risk vs. Reward

[Saccharin]

No actually in this game it is mostly ( and I might even say "purely" ) a hardcore thing. The "casual" player is someone that does not gorge, they play intermittently and take there time with the content, not only that but they actually engage in as much content as possible. Hardcorers seem to focus on certain content and burn through that content than complain about not having enough to do. That is just the reality of FF14 at this point.

The term casual has different meanings for different player, that's why I hate it so much.

[Magis]

Awesome post OP but a lot of people on the forum won't get it (and can see it in the replies). They see it as an either or; instances HAVE to be brain dead casual or HAVE to be punishingly hard. So when you ask for content that takes some basic problem solving skills you hear them quickly paste their canned responses of HUR HUR ALEX SAVAGE, HUR THE CHALLENGE SHOULD BE GOOD ENOUGH.

The risk (or difficulty) and reward are intertwined. The risk makes the reward more valuable, more desirable, and more memorable. People remember getting that item from a hard fight over the vendor trash you get completing the billionth fetch quest. On the other hand, the reward is the prime motivator to push through the difficulty. It's the light at the end of the tunnel, the carrot on the stick. Put the correct reward and players will push through even the toughest content. Put a crap one and people won't do it at all. This isn't some rocket science, this is fundamental game design.

And this is what FFXIV's content has turned into; a pendulum swinging between two extremes because SE's content designers can't seem to do basic game design. You have content like Alex; super hard but barely any reward (dyable subjectively ugly gear, that's it). No wonder it failed, there is no motivator. Then you have Diadem; High reward but low difficulty, and people began to bemoan how boring it is. Both lead to boredom, both are shitty design. You need to balance difficult content with an appropriate reward, not settle with BS half-measures like "clearing it is reward enough". So is playing the Pain Station but I wouldn't call that a "good" game.

Oh great. Another casual vs hardcore topic where the casual argument will ultimately win because hardcore players are the minority blah blah blah.

I love how dumb that argument is. Look at any subset of the total player base and you'll find minorities and can bring a justification to ignore them. People who play Triple Triad are a minority, better garbage that content. How about those doing Chocobo Racing or the new LoV? People who buy stuff on the cash shop are probably a minority, let's garbage that too (I hope)! Housing, gardening, etc, etc...

If the game was what only the majority cared about or did, it would be nothing but two dungeons and a currency grind, with a shit ton of inactive accounts except during Tuesday reset and patch month.

[Vivi_Bushido]

No actually in this game it is mostly ( and I might even say "purely" ) a hardcore thing. The "casual" player is someone that does not gorge, they play intermittently and take there time with the content, not only that but they actually engage in as much content as possible. Hardcorers seem to focus on certain content and burn through that content than complain about not having enough to do. That is just the reality of FF14 at this point.

Well your wrong. It's not "purely" to just being a hardcore thing. I identify myself to be hardcore and hangout with a fair share of both casual and hardcore players, and I've been playing this game for almost two years without ever unsubbing once. And even though I gorge myself on the content, I never once got so bored as to quit playing for any period of time. Sure, there's been times where I didn't log in for a few days, but that's because of things that happen in real life that prevented me from doing so. I know this may be hard for some people to grasp, but hardcore players do have lives as well.

[Zojha]

The risk (or difficulty) and reward are intertwined.

Let me ask you a question: Why is glamour a thing?

It's tedious to get the pieces, often takes lots of money and effort. Not only that, but you also have to buy or make the stupid prisms and it clogs up your inventory.
However, there is no reward for it whatsoever. You don't get tomestones, you don't get money, you don't get a title, nor a mount nor a minion, nor better stats for doing a good outfit. Nothing. It's only effort and cost. And yet, it's immensely popular. How can this even be?

Note: It's a rhetorical question. The answer is:"Genuine enjoyment". Something hard content apparently sorely lacks.

[AylmerOfFamfrit]

Some of the things you mentioned were attributes from ffxi. Features that made it great and allowed it to hold strong for so many years. Idk if thoses featured existed in 1.0 and led to its overhaul. In new areas the could introduce theses elements but not throughout the game. That would mean another full game reboot.

[Chayala]

Zojha, you really should think before you post. Looking cool, badass or however you want your character to look is a huge reward for relatively little effort. On top of that, people have ALWAYS had a great care for what their characters they invest time in look like. Do you really want to see your character wearing something like the darklight tank gear? I know I never do again.

But then, let's look at say dungeons and stuff. This game puts out dungeons that give gear that is inferior to the currency you get from it by a large margin that can be spammed. The designs of the dungeons are mostly blah. They can look pretty but there isn't anything to them. This is probably going to be how most games do their dungeons being instanced (DDO had some nice puzzles and stuff though, nothing too complex but fun). Then you have raid content that gets brought out that is equal to or inferior to more easily obtainable gear.Often times coming with it, extremely UGLY gear, or stuff that's dead on arrival. Anyone else remember crystal tower launching with I80 gear? They've had the problem THAT far back.

Those are two VERY different subsets of things to do and reasoning behind it so comparing it is a terrible jump of "logic" on your part.

Part of FFXIV 1.0's major issue was 1) not shipping with a functional threat table. Ya know. That's kinda needed although was fixed. To be honest it was just not finished. At best it was in an early Beta stage at release and Square realized that. It got better but by the time much was done it was decided to scrap it entirely.

[CrimsonThunder]

Our avatars kill gods on a regular basis and you want a giraffe to be a threat?

[TarynH]

The risk (or difficulty) and reward are intertwined. The risk makes the reward more valuable, more desirable, and more memorable. People remember getting that item from a hard fight over the vendor trash you get completing the billionth fetch quest.

The problem is how do you define "reward" for thousands of subscribers? What might be a "reward" to you (gear from Alexander? 210 gear?) might be utter trash to me. Surprising as it might sound, some people don't play this game to get the best gear for the moment and unsubscribe. Some people play the long game. What you call "casual" players, can sometimes be players that "casually" and steadily get out of the game what they want. They don't unsubscribe right after new content. They stay subscribed, and slowly gather scrips, or esoterics, or enjoy beast tribes. Or perhaps they take their time between patches, actually getting geared up to a level they feel is appropriate to their play style.

I understand the OP's explanation of "risk." They're basically saying they want everything about FFXI that I hated. We have sight and sound aggro mobs already. Scent? Low HP? Magic? All of those things were annoying as hell in FFXI. Especially when you were after a certain objective, or goal, that had nothing to do with those mobs. It was annoying because they would aggro you while you had no reason to fight them in the first place.

And that is where the OP fails to explain the "reward" side of their post. What is rewarding about overworld mobs aggroing you, or possibly killing you? Example: You're out farming those dhalmels for skins. But wait! A stray elemental enters the fight! Why? Because you happened to cast magic too close to them.

So while you are beating down on your "new and improved" dhalmels, that take 2? 3? times as long to kill, the elemental starts casting Tornado on you. Out of nowhere, you lose half of your HPs (a la FFXI style). You look at the elemental and scream "WHY?!" You're capped on wind shards/crystals/clusters, and all of your retainers have 9999 of each. You have no need to fight, let alone look, at that Wind Elemental. But now you have to kill it, or die. You can't run away, because in your flight path are skeletons that just spawned at night. And guess what... they aggro to low HP.
There was nothing "rewarding" about FFXI's overworld mob system. Everything took forever to kill. Could kill you, if you let it. And absolutely never dropped anything remotely worth it, unless you were farming a particular item. I guarantee I never felt "accomplished" getting that one crystal to drop from those elementals either.

[Moomba33]

I can't say I see the appeal of a dangerous open world.
For me open world content is stuff to do solo while I'm waiting in DF (like daily hunts and beast tribe quests) and I don't particularly want those to take longer or be harder.

I don't think casual and hardcore necessarily has anything to do with difficulty.
To me casual means that you probably don't play every day or you only participate in a few specific activities while hardcore means that you invest a lot of time and effort into the game.

For myself, I play a few hours everyday. I spend most of my time on easy content such as leveling alternate classes and running dungeons with my FC.
I generally only try the more difficult content once it's on DF. I will likely never try Alex Savage since I already got the story from normal and am not really interested in challenge.

I wouldn't find a more difficult over world more rewarding. I would find it an irritant just slowing down my activities.

[Archaell]

Dangerous open world seems kinda impossible with our player base...

What would you say about dangerous parts of the world? Let's call it "Diadem done right" or "open" world dungeons. A randomly generated map in open world which would change every X hours. Content including ilevel sync, mainly focused towards groups of 2/3+ players, which would upon the respawn not allow you to enter it again until it changes. Basically the second you die you are out of there. Would such a content create a more realistic sense of danger?