Bard - they broke my job

[RiceisNice]

I'm not sure why people are mentioning Savage as an example of no TP played. A3S, unless you clear REALLY fast AND have a NIN AND have your MCH/BRD LB3, you need some TP restorations from BRD/MCH. A4S, even with Quarantine you will still go dry without a BRD/MCH occasionally boosting up the party ... unless you're saccing the melee for some reason.

Speaking from a MCH perspective that's gotten to A3s last phase, I've never once had to use TP turret on A1, 2 or 3. It might be because we're doing mechanics for A3s, but at that point in time we're still on schedule with beating the enrage timer.

[Sleigh]

Speaking from a MCH perspective that's gotten to A3s last phase, I've never once had to use TP turret on A1, 2 or 3. It might be because we're doing mechanics for A3s, but at that point in time we're still on schedule with beating the enrage timer.

People should start running out roughly around 10 minutes in, give or take, with quite some time left before enrage. That's including a small amount of magnet downtime.

If your group is getting away with no TP restorations up until the end of the fight, you are either killing it really fast, or I'll be frank and say there is something done wrong from some of your TP users, either up-time wise or rotation wise. Not even having a NIN Goad strategically can cover all the TP needed.

[RiceisNice]

People should start running out roughly around 10 minutes in, give or take, with quite some time left before enrage. That's including a small amount of magnet downtime.

If your group is getting away with no TP restorations up until the end of the fight, you are either killing it really fast, or I'll be frank and say there is something done wrong from some of your TP users, either up-time wise or rotation wise. Not even having a NIN Goad strategically can cover all the TP needed.

It's most likely extra downtime from focusing on mechanics than optimizing dps. But even then, my point was that we're still on track with beating the enrage time (give or take a minute) without any TP issues or the need for a TP regen. Granted we're not as undergeared as before, but my stance has always been that regen is necessary for progression, especially if it's going in below-ideal gear.

[vp_cmc]

I'm not sure how people do a2s without tp song. I play tp song, because applying dots to many targets (80tp each) makes me out of tp roughly after two big machines (never bothered to remember their names, sorry). And I'm usually out of tp again after this at the last wave. Am I doing it wrong?

[RinchanNau]

A1S is the only savage floor where no TP regen makes sense regardless of kill speed. So much down time.

I can't imagine not using any TP regen in A2S. Even in a 6 minute kill I would expect to play roughly 30s of Paeon. On my A2S that are over 2k I played Paeon twice for 8:14 kill and 3 times for both 9:14 and 9:34 kills. 7 minute kills with my previous static static also used Paeon twice. All the logs are available, but I'm not sure if they're okay to post here.

In A3S you will need Paeon for kills over 10 minutes provided everyone is pressing buttons. Your group may even need a little in add phase depending on party comp, and if they were maximizing aoe potential for Equal Concentration. I often end phase 2 with almost zero TP. But that's mainly if I know I will get a Goad sometime before final phase. For slower groups I plan on a few ticks of TP before add phase and roughly 30s going into the first embolus phase. That's enough for a lot of groups, but in the case that it isn't then perhaps a 3rd short Paeon close to the end. A3S depends a lot on group comp and player gear/skill. Even without aoe for Equal Concentration I can end add phase with almost 0 TP due to getting so many extra GCDs because of low party DPS on the adds.

A4S will also require TP regen. Different strats can change the timing of those regens as whether or not you kill certain dolls can dictate whether what times you'll have MP for regen. In my previous group we killed every doll so things were different. But now I've adjusted to groups only killing both dolls on 4th leg. Typically I'll do a few ticks going into leg 2 if the MP is there. Maybe a tick into leg 3 then foe. Maybe 1/5 a bar of MP for Paeon going into leg 4. Paeon between the two leg 4 add sets. In final phase I honestly don't remember, but I would expect to Paeon at least once in final phase. Maybe after first pentacles (especially if sac'ing).

As always, it'll depend on party comp and kill times, but you will have unhappy physical DPS/tanks on every floor except for A1S if you do not provide TP regen.

[Connor]

I'm not sure about others, but I know for me the problem with Ballad/Paeon/Promotion isn't that they're never needed or that they aren't powerful enough, just that outside of Savage, Thordan EX and sometimes in the Diadem there aren't many opportunities to use them efficiently. As far as I know, Scholar (and possibly tanks) is the only other job that isn't able to use its full skill-set efficiently outside of more difficult content. I'm sure I remember them saying that Scholar's new abilities and Bard songs (specifically the Warden's Paean) were designed with raiding in mind, which isn't a problem itself. But when the bulk of the abilities that define the job (Bard songs, Promotion, etc) can only be fully utilized in a small amount of less-accessible content it can be easy to see why people feel like they don't have much use for them.
(Also, note that when I say Bard songs I'm not referring to Requiem as that's pretty universal in usefulness)

[RiceisNice]

As always, it'll depend on party comp and kill times, but you will have unhappy physical DPS/tanks on every floor except for A1S if you do not provide TP regen.

Once the group has the mechanics down and focus on optimizing dps, then I can see this being the case. But when we're focusing more on the mechanics (thus not dpsing optimally and not running into TP issues) and still beating the enrage timer and mini-dps checks, I can't really vouch for TP being needed in that scenario outside of optimizing dps/speed killing.

[Haxetc]

Once the group has the mechanics down and focus on optimizing dps, then I can see this being the case. But when we're focusing more on the mechanics (thus not dpsing optimally and not running into TP issues) and still beating the enrage timer and mini-dps checks, I can't really vouch for TP being needed in that scenario outside of optimizing dps/speed killing.

Using mechanics as an excuse is pretty lame. That just called not being good. No matter what the occasion is you still can press buttons, you just have to dodge stuff. My progression group has needed TP promotion since progression even more so with an AST if we got arrow. I've been asked for paeon in every turn including A1S. You and your group just need to learn to press buttons while dodging it seems.

[Boss_Koivula]

Looking at fflogs from todays kills for my group I sang paeon three times in A2S, twice in A3S and only once in A4S. So ya I would say its still necessary to bring bard with you to raids. Especially when you dont run with a ninja.

[RiceisNice]

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Yes well, that's exactly what I said. I don't see the point in you repeating what I said unless you just wanted to say we're not good.

If our group isn't optimizing Dps, but we're still making Dps checks, tp regen isn't nessescarly needed is what I'm saying.