AST's weakness in end game

[Vlady]

SCH AOE DPS is far better. Single Target they are about the same, with the asterisk AST can't keep it up. DPSing on AST runs AST out of mana in pretty short order, whereas SCH can go indefinitely. It presents a major problem in fights there the offhealer spends the first 90sec or so dpsing. You aren't totally OOM after as an AST, but your mana level is very unsafe.

Its not suppose to be able to keep up with the scholar. Scholars being mana neutral during dps mode might be an issue that SE will have to deal with at a later time. No mana source should be infinite for dps purposes and not even for a scholar. My point is being able to off dps during burst phases the astrologian is in a position to be more useful then the scholar should a future fight entail such mechanics. I have an issue with an entire fight being a huge dps check but I feel that burst dps checks is a good use of mechanics that force dpsers to be able to play their job to its best. Enrage mechanics should not be the timer but healers running out of mana should be a more useful form of timer.

[AzureFlare]

Stuff

I did notice Thordan as a pretty fierce exception as well. Haven't cleared the fight yet (please don't ask why), but I can generally keep up 300+ DPS regardless if the other healer is a SCH or WHM unless chainraising is needed. Given from your example it does sound like there are a lot of differences since I got plenty of time to toss Malefic 2 in nearly every phase and you claim to only have been able to DoT at the start of phases (and I assume meteor/Sacred Cross being exceptions) and get near-similar results. Thordan is also nice enough that the you get a ridiculous amount of time to refresh your mana though.
My fear is also that Thordan-esque fights are a dime in a dozen. Wouldn't mind if all fights were of that structure really, all healers and their.. I guess playstyles? Shine in that fight pretty nicely.

[Sidra]

Snip

It is an issue. You play this game, not the game you wish it was. And in this game the off healer does far more dpsing than it does anything else, and often for extended durations as the main healer heals everything. If SE changes the meta, than perhaps it would be less important. But right now, it is. AST's mana issue while dpsing is a massive barrier to use it is anything other than the main healer.

[TatoRazzino]

It is an issue. You play this game, not the game you wish it was. And in this game the off healer does far more dpsing than it does anything else, and often for extended durations as the main healer heals everything. If SE changes the meta, than perhaps it would be less important. But right now, it is. AST's mana issue while dpsing is a massive barrier to use it is anything other than the main healer.

Thordan offers a big break after phase 1, when everyone has to spread to break chains and deal with towers. After the two knights, there's an even longer break that allows your MP to refresh even without Mage's Ballad/MP turret. All three healers can DPS for the entire first phase without any fear of running out of MP for the healing check that the fight requires in the other phases, so the MP management SCH has becomes irrelevant and numbers for both AST and WHM become higher; anyone with little knowledge of math can see that the combined potencies of the SCH's' DPS spells and skills is lower than AST's and WHM's - in fact, WHM has the highest burst and is only lower in numbers due to accuracy requirements for their whole toolkit. AST is lower than SCH because of MP management and the fact that SCH has three DoTs that bypass accuracy. In Thordan, however, Shadow Flare loses value because the boss moves around a lot. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that it's perfectly possible for a good AST to pass SCH in DPS if they're both allowed to DPS for the same amount of time - and that fight makes it possible. If some people in here can't do it, too bad; there are some who can. And I didn't even mentioned the cards, because that's not the topic discussed at the moment.

[TatoRazzino]

I did notice Thordan as a pretty fierce exception as well. Haven't cleared the fight yet (please don't ask why), but I can generally keep up 300+ DPS regardless if the other healer is a SCH or WHM unless chainraising is needed. Given from your example it does sound like there are a lot of differences since I got plenty of time to toss Malefic 2 in nearly every phase and you claim to only have been able to DoT at the start of phases (and I assume meteor/Sacred Cross being exceptions) and get near-similar results. Thordan is also nice enough that the you get a ridiculous amount of time to refresh your mana though.
My fear is also that Thordan-esque fights are a dime in a dozen. Wouldn't mind if all fights were of that structure really, all healers and their.. I guess playstyles? Shine in that fight pretty nicely.

I only applied DoTs and maybe did few Malefic IIs simply because I was main healing and I'd rather get ready for the phases by using Stoneskin on some people than adding more DPS when it's not needed. Playstyle, I guess.

[Sidra]

It is an issue. You play this game, not the game you wish it was. And in this game the off healer does far more dpsing than it does anything else, and often for extended durations as the main healer heals everything. If SE changes the meta, than perhaps it would be less important. But right now, it is. AST's mana issue while dpsing is a massive barrier to use it is anything other than the main healer.

Well yeah but you just cherry picked the most forgiving MP fight in the game. Check your mana in A3 by the time the final phase starts and you've been dpsing 90% of the time before that, or even in A1 at the first drop and you have a tank to heal after you've been dpsing until the add dropped. It's not a great position MP wise to be in. Especially when the competition is versus a SCH who never has MP issues, ever.

Can it be done by a skilled player? Of course, but that's not really the issue.

[TatoRazzino]

Well yeah but you just cherry picked the most forgiving MP fight in the game. Check your mana in A3 by the time the final phase starts and you've been dpsing 90% of the time before that, or even in A1 at the first drop and you have a tank to heal after you've been dpsing until the add dropped. It's not a great position MP wise to be in. Especially when the competition is versus a SCH who never has MP issues, ever.

Can it be done by a skilled player? Of course, but that's not really the issue.

That was the whole point of the comparison in the first place: showing that it is possible to do it when the fight allows you to and that th WHM/AST combo is useful in those fights. Both WHM and AST were designed to be main healers, and bringing two main healers to a fight is only smart if the fight allows you to. So, yes, I picked a fight that allows it.

[AzureFlare]

Well yeah but you just cherry picked the most forgiving MP fight in the game. Check your mana in A3 by the time the final phase starts and you've been dpsing 90% of the time before that, or even in A1 at the first drop and you have a tank to heal after you've been dpsing until the add dropped. It's not a great position MP wise to be in. Especially when the competition is versus a SCH who never has MP issues, ever.

Can it be done by a skilled player? Of course, but that's not really the issue.

The issue is that low HPS requirements + high DPS uptime + healer with mana-neutral DPS when given the chance to spam Energy Drain (and do a good chunk of damage if you actually care to use it during Cleric, which you should) without thought = stupid and not properly thought of by SE, whether it be the encounter or SCH itself. When it is so bonkers you can use your super mana-inefficient spells (Shadowflare, Broil, Ruin 2, Blizzard 2) like crazy instead of spending it wisely (no filler/Ruin only as filler) surely alarm bells should already ring.

[Sidra]

There is not a single fight in the game that at this point cannot be beaten with any combo of the 3 healers or even any of the 2 healers doubled up.

However, this thread is about AST's weakness in end game. Given there are 2 healer slots in a group and AST only legitimately competes for one slot, I find it a problem. That seems to be the whole reason for the 2 stances, which they just didn't implement Noct well to complete for the offslot with SCH.

[Sidra]

The issue is that low HPS requirements + high DPS uptime + healer with mana-neutral DPS when given the chance to spam Energy Drain (and do a good chunk of damage if you actually care to use it during Cleric, which you should) without thought = stupid and not properly thought of by SE, whether it be the encounter or SCH itself. When it is so bonkers you can use your super mana-inefficient spells (Shadowflare, Broil, Ruin 2, Blizzard 2) like crazy instead of spending it wisely (no filler/Ruin only as filler) surely alarm bells should already ring.

I dunno I don't really think that's the issue - that's just the way the game is. So given the game as they made it, all 3 healer combos should be just as viable in difficult content, and WHM/AST is clearly below the level of AST/SCH or WHM/SCH.

Would I mind if they increased the hps requirements of encounters in the future? Not at all. I think having the variety and testing multifaceted healer skill would be great. In one fight have super crazy dps checks like they have now where tanks and healers are squeezing out every ounce of dps they can while staying alive - and the move to the next encounter where there so so much damage that the death risk comes from healers running out of mana from only healing. But thats a totally different discussion than what are AST's deficiencies in the game now as it is.