A Tank Balance Megathread

[Kabooa]

If there is specific maths about that I would be glad to know what it is.

Keep in mind so much of the game's mechanics are obfuscated by the developers. This is intended to keep a simple perspective for progression ('More is better') of stats and gear. As accurate as the stat weights are, there's still a margin for error (Which many of them put in their disclaimer.)

For example, the simple math is that your damage (and by extension all damage in the game) is, unmitigated, your Weapon Damage x Weighted Attribute x Weighted Det. Adding more to any of these stats will result in a damage increase. I can't tell you by how much, but that's kind of how the Devs want us to look at it.


I've always been of the opinion that bosses work off their own stat set ups; a 10% reduction in primary stat doesn't mean as much if, for example, the boss has some arbitrary bonus damage that isn't effected by stat weights, or their stat weights are different.

This doesn't make stat reductions worse, mind you. It still follows the 'more is better' mind set.

MORE DOTS. MORE DEBUFFS. MORE DAMAGES!

[Freyyy]

Yes, Attack power = STR, but STR is put into a formula for a final damage value.
It's not the same to increase STR than this final damage value.

It doesn't answer my question at all. I already know that. The fact is that Berserk increases ATTACK POWER and not DAMAGE. This made me think that Zerk doesn't increase damage by 50%, maybe close to that, but not exactly 50%. But one day I've been told otherwise, that 50% more attack power was totally equal to 50% more damage. So, by following this logic, -10% STR would be equal to -10% physical damage. I want precise maths about that. Either Zerk doesn't increase damage by 50% but in fact a little less like I was thinking before, or RoH/Delirium are in fact mitigating 10% of their damage type. I want maths about that.

[Reynhart]

This made me think that Zerk doesn't increase damage by 50%, maybe close to that, but not exactly 50%.

I've found a thread with a damage formula. Disclaimer : The thread is old and I personnaly have no idea what the real formula is.
If "Skill Damage = (WD*.2714745 + STR*.1006032 + (DTR-202)*.0241327 + WD*STR*.0036167 + WD*(DTR-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (potency/100)" is indeed true, you see that multiplying STR by 1,5 does not exactly multiply damage by 1.5.
If I put my stats into this formula (WD = 70, STR = 924, DET = 308), adding 50% STR gives me 46% damage bonus.

[Freyyy]

I've found a thread with a damage formula. Disclaimer : The thread is old and I personnaly have no idea what the real formula is.
If "Skill Damage = (WD*.2714745 + STR*.1006032 + (DTR-202)*.0241327 + WD*STR*.0036167 + WD*(DTR-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (potency/100)" is indeed true, you see that multiplying STR by 1,5 does not exactly multiply damage by 1.5.
If I put my stats into this formula (WD = 70, STR = 924, DET = 308), adding 50% STR gives me 46% damage bonus.

Okay that makes sense now. Thank you.

[Februs]

The issue is, do we really just want to clone DRK's rotation where its basically get hate and then ignore the hate combo forever? That's why I didn't think it'd be ideal for putting it on RA. Perhaps if the duration of the debuff and Goring Blade were extended to 30s?

I think ideally we want to see something along the lines, at the the end of the day, of RoH-GB-RA-RA-repeat or RoH-GB-RA-repeat, depending on the potencies.

This is actually why I think the changes to RoH should be kept to a minimum.Personally, I'd rather see it's hate potency buffed but leave it's dmg potency and Debuff the same while adding the slashing debuff to the RA combo. Essentially, this would give a Pld two variants of their primary rotation that they can choose between depending on the needs of the moment of the fight. One would emphasize dmg mitigation while the other aided the raid in dmg output. They'd look like so:


RoH > GB > RoH > RA > GB > RoH > RA > GB > RoH etc (Identical to a Pld's current Primary combo that prioritizes enmity generation and Dmg mitigation debuff for higher Pld Defense)

RoH > GB > RA > RA > GB > RA > RA etc (Combo variation that prioritizes Raid Dmg increase at the expense of allowing RoH debuff to fall off briefly. Pld becomes more vulnerable to physical dmg, but dps checks become attainable.)

I organized them in such a way assuming that the RoH dmg potency remains the same. The current timer of the RoH debuff does not survive 3 combo rotations. Meaning if a Pld rotates RoH > GB > RA the Str down debuff expires before RA is used. If both RA and RoH had a timed debuff the Pld would be forced to choose which they wanted to prioritize and use the appropriate combo accordingly. If they are actually tanking, the choice would be obvious. If not, or if there's a moment in which the RoH debuff is not necessary (like the Sacred Cross Dps check in Thor Ex... or the entire fight of A4, for that matter) they could use their alternate rotation.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

I agree with most of what you wrote, but making Wrath/Abandon weaponskills interrupt combos is an absolutely horrendous idea.

How you don't see how awkward that would make WAR to play is beyond me.

[Shurrikhan]

You know, that's a thing I don't understand. Some months ago when I was talking about Berserk on forums, I was thinking that 50% AP didn't equal 50% more damage, but someone told me that in fact, it does. AP = STR. So if +50% AP/STR = +50% damage, then why would a -10% STR debuff not equal -10% physical damage ? If there is specific maths about that I would be glad to know what it is.

If AP is even a basic multiplier (term not subtracted/added from/to) in the formula, and you multiply it by 1.5, then the result (damage) will also increase by 50%.
50% AP = 50% more damage, but also 50% more effect from all potency-based skills (e.g. Equilibrium, Flash, Second Wind). That's the real benefit to Berserk.

[mcspamm]

Still reading my way through the OP, but I noticed a mistake regarding one combo potency.

In the combos section for WAR, you have Storm's Path (SP) listed as 260 potency when it should be 250 debuff + buff.

So far so good though.

[AlexiIvaniskavich]

Probably one of the strongest and most comprehensive posts about all 3 tank classes located in one spot. Thank you Syzgian! A very solid analysis of each class, including the pros and cons within each class. (except perhaps the cons for War, which you even stated you were grasping a bit for some of those). IMO, any tank with questions on their class or the other tank classes should refer to the OP. This thread could be used as a class guide for all tank classes, at least until the hypothetical skill adjustments start.

For those crying this is another "nerf war" thread - just STAHP. Warrior, at present, is the ONLY class that is damn near perfect in almost every conceivable way. It is beautifully designed, and very synergetic on its own and in the raid environment. The other two tank classes are not in this category, and one of those classes is very far behind. There is a definitive imbalance between these 3 classes, leaving your options to be buffing two classes or SLIGHTLY nerfing 1 class. Personally, I don't care which route SE takes, but adjustments should be done. ( I lean to some of the more recent threads of turning PLD into the "Utility Tank" - making the lesser individual DPS not so painful, and some tweaks to the DRK game play).

I think the quickest summary, and reason adjustments need to be made, was in this:

PLD - lowest overall DPS, great mitigation, lowest in-practice utility
WAR - highest OT DPS, great mitigation and self-healing, excellent utility, infinite resources.
DRK - highest MT DPS, great migigation, excellent utility

If you gave PLD some raid wide buffs – in moderation – you could make any tank party composition much stronger than it is set up now (Just spit balling here but somewhere along the lines of a mini battle litany/goad/trick attack, or perhaps raid wide defensive buffs, or increased raid healing potency). Have a warrior? PLD goes MT, War keeps it’s OT dps. Have a DRK? PLD goes OT….. So long as the utility is overpowered, the DRK/WAR combination is still very useful as well, as it is best MT/OT dps output. IMO this is how you create balance between 3 classes without the homogenous class of Dark Warriordin.

Though I main DRK/PLD for raid purposes, I have all tanks at 60. I prefer to take the best tank for the job. That answer should not always be Warrior.

[Isius]

I see what you're saying. I still think it makes sense though, for PLD to offer raid dps increases given its lower personal DPS. That's a theme we see across all jobs. The issue is, do we really just want to clone DRK's rotation where its basically get hate and then ignore the hate combo forever? That's why I didn't think it'd be ideal for putting it on RA. Perhaps if the duration of the debuff and Goring Blade were extended to 30s?

If we buff RoH's potency, how much would it have to be buffed so as not render RA/GB obsolete but still maintain PLD's current DPS at minimum?

I think ideally we want to see something along the lines, at the the end of the day, of RoH-GB-RA-RA-repeat or RoH-GB-RA-repeat, depending on the potencies.

Haven't heard much on DRK changes, any thoughts on those?

Yes and No. First off Paladin never forgets about aggro like Warrior or Dark Knight does, or at a lot less degree versus a Paladin. Aggro always loams over the head of a Paladin trying to maintain aggro, while doing it's higher dps with GB > RA > RA > repeat. It doesn't matter if you stack all strength on your Paladin you will always slowly lose aggro without a Ninja if tanking against good Dps, while you as a Paladin trying to do as much dps as possible too. So atm Paladin's in most cases spam RoH/aggro combo at the beginning far more than other tanks to get the same effect as the other tanks. I personally can see why RoH has lower potency, since if we all look at the other tanks combos. The other tanks combos that go into mitigation -10%PHY/MAG/DMG all have lower potency, than their ideal most damaging combos, but Dark Knight is the expection, since even if Delirum Blade does have less potency it leads to more MP regen, more Dark Arts, more Dps/Utility. The lower potencies on these moves are meant to be a chioce made by tank for more mitigation at the cost of less dmg with that said it sucks this is the reason why RoH has such low potency, while being it's main means to generate aggro putting RoH into a odd place. Possibly bad design, and leftovers from incomplent design back from 2.x.

So RoH is not really a choice for Paladin, it's a must, and also means a lot less outgoing dmg from a Paladin unlike Dark Knight with our mitigation combo is also our aggro generation combo.

If you look at Paladin's Kit there is another move in HW that was buffed to help out where Paladin doesn't need to spam RoH, that is Shield Swipe. In 3.0 it was given increased emnity as a means to not have to spam RoH in my mind....but Shield Swipe again was also a dps lost versus doing GB or RA, while other tanks don't have to deal with this negative. So functionally, what I think in the devs minds Paladin was meant to RoH once similiar to Dark Knight's Power Slash, but also needing to use Shield Swipes to maintain it's aggro after RoH aggro generation. But Swipe Shield fell short in 3.0, and imo is still falling short in 3.1 with it's buff ogcd, but at a cost of potency from 210 to 150. It's better but doesn't achieve the goal I think Shield Swipe was meant to do because of it's reduced potency, or because it's aggro multiplier is too weak to actually do it's job.

So Dark Knight can just aggro once, while Paladin wishes it could do the same aswell, but needing to use Shield Swipe to try to maintain it's aggro, since Paladin does produce less aggro with RoH versus over tanks aggro combos, and aggro generation in general.

As for your question about how high RoH potency should be buffed, if RoH was given the +10% slashing buff...I say just forget about it. Since you might as well just use RoH, and RA would just become a underwhelming skill with slighty more potency, than RoH. As said as above RoH was given less potency because it has mitigation attached to it, even if it is it's aggro generation combo, and would only rip aggro off the mt with all your aggro changes to the skill. If +10% slashing buff was given to Paladin it should go to RA, it's highest direct dps combo. But that would make Paladin a Warrior, and I don't want to be a Warrior, and that buff is what makes Warrior a Warrior, and stated by Yoshi-P, and is part of thier kit, and don't spout to me as being a Yoshi-P lover either, because I am not, and actually bitter toward his ideals about Paladin, and with them knowing Paladin is underperforming, but does nothing about it. But Warrior's can keep all of thier tools, and also their mitigation move from Storm's Path. Those are Warrior's tools let them keep it, instead of trying to trade skills to balance tanks. Try instead to give Paladin it's own tools, and make it unique. Paladin is not a Warrior/Bard/Dark Knight/Astrologian, so if you want to be different don't compare it to those classes.

If you want my opinion on buffs/nerfs these are mine:

Paladin Changes:

Before I begin, you, and others on these forums are stating Paladin should be the Bard of the Tanks more utility, and but at the cost of personal dmg. Okay I will humor this idea, but remember Paladin is part tank/dps/healer class not a Bard. Let the Bard be a Bard while I will be a Paladin, and if people call my suggestions OP, than good it's getting to Warrior's level. I am also going to try to not affect Paladin too much in lvl50 content, but I will have to make changes to skills to bring paladin up to par, and also make changes to eliminate Pld's dps lost while doing it's base job, tanking. Since Paladin already has the lowest dps out of the tanks so it does need a better means to maintain it's dps aswell. Buffs to Paladin I will also try to make it were it meets the needs of both Paladin's that spec more into str, and also those that like to spec into vit, since Pld players are more tank minded, than Drk/War Players, and make the buffs useful to both str/vit playstyles.

Lvl30-50 Paladin Changes

Shield Oath - Produces x2.5 aggro multiplier while active. (I like your idea on this buff)

Shield Swipe - Cooldown is reduced to 10sec versus 15secs, and crits from combo enders also proc Shield Swipe. For slight dps/emnity increase.

Rage of Halone - No Emnity increase...would mess up Paladin off-tanking in lvl50. Since RoH combo is all Paladin had back then. Understood. Felt like I needed to just put this in, not a buff/nerf just stating why it shouldn't get a emnity increase, and probably not a potency increase too, so I am wrong too. Remains the same.

Flash - Now is ogcd with a 2.5cd, reasoning Flash is a aggro generation move that does no dmg. This is a pure dps lost with each use, while needing to tank multiple mobs. This leads to Paladin able to combo still while flashing between gcds. But also allows Paladins players to blind single target mobs with more ease or generate more aggro. So Flash no longer eats a gcd, leading to more dmg multi tanking, and more aggro on single target mobs. Other tanks can cross-class Flash, so take it as a buff for all the tanks, minus the blind. This change should bump the needed Paladin aggro during raid content leading to less RoH combos. Increasing Paladin's dps numbers more to the ideal dps it gets from test dummy parse.

*Also sidenote would make pre-lvl40 Plds have a easier time tanking mobs.

New Trait*(Replacement trait to Awareness 15-25secs Pld trait, all tanks can have the 25secs imo)
Replacement trait will make spells on Paladin use vit instead of mind, makes use of Physical Dmg from Paladin's weapon into the equation when casting a spell, and also skill speed acts like spell speed for Paladin. All at the cost of +50% MP to non-native Paladin spells.

This is meant to make Paladin's cross-class Cure more useful to a Pld, but at a higher cost to prevent Paladin replacing a healer, more for spot healing, if needed. These changes would benefit Vit Paladins more, but I think Str Plds will take these changes too.

Cure - Currently cost 442MP at lvl60, but with trait will make it cost 663MP, but is now useful cross-class skill.

StoneSkin - Currently cost 884 at lvl60, but with trait will make it cost 1326MP, a nerf, but also other tanks get nothing like this, so it is still a tool Paladin has above the other tanks.

*To me these cross-class skills should still have the cost of being interrupted, since you are going out of your role as a tank, and temporarily replacing a healer, and they are abilities you can continously cast till you run out of MP.

Tempered Will - Also applies Surecast benefit for the 10sec duration, cooldown is still 3mins, so Cure/Stoneskin is still a boon to a Paladin mting, but not spammable.

Spirits Within - No longer changes potency depending on how much HP a Paladin has, because it's dumb idea for a skill on a tank.

Lvl51-60 Paladin Changes

Sheltron - Imo Sheltron to remain 30sec cd, and mp regen. I can see why people complain about wanting it to block magic dmg, but honestly I don't care about magic dmg much as a Paladin myself. In some cases, I eat less magic dmg then a Dark Knight. So getting more magic defense is meh to me at the cost of less mp regen, and I prefer the mp regen atm. If I need more magic defense on a single boss, tank swapping is a thing afterall.

Clemancy - Now is a instant cast ability with a 2min cooldown. If Clemancy is used on oneself it provides a regen of 100% of your hp over a 30secs period, so if you have 17k HP you will regen 1.4k HP per gcd(Yep, you read this right), and if casted on a party member acts like a aoe heal similiar to Cure 3, but at a potency of 400, based on Str. (Yep, you read this right again.)
*Reasoning is to make Paladin more as the Defensive tank, which players want out of Paladin, and what the Devs spout out to us. That Paladin is the most defensive tank, but to also give Paladin a powerful group utility. These would lead you choosing to heal yourself or heal the group as a Paladin. Picking which effect to use depending on an encounter.
-Regen to self to make it were Paladin can take care of itself for 30secs during periods of low incoming dmg, so both healers CAN actually make up for Paladin's less dps.
-Group heal for added utility so groups can recover from raid aoes even faster, and to cover for Divine Veil's longer cd, but weaker aswell, since it is after the fact, and not actually preventing dmg.

Divine Veil - Remains at a 3min cd, but remove the healer trigger, and increase the range of the skill. I am fine with the 3min cd, if Clemancy gets the aoe heal when used on allies.

Royal Authority - Potency remains the same, but gains the effect of a 20sec debuff on enemies of +1% - +3% dmg increase to the target. Whatever is needed to compete with a Drk/War set up to a Pld/War, and Drk/Pld setup, while considering the Pld buffs I mentioned. *Not going to try to figure this out since numbers will always be different on the tank setup. But dmg increase from Royal Authority should be low since it is affecting all members.

***Call out if you like the Paladin changes, or scream they are op, or cherry pick the ones you like idc, these are just all my opinions afterall***


Warrior Changes

My Warrior is my secondary, and yes I think it is OP. Personally these are my changes to Warrior, but also not interrupting it's playstyle, but does slow it down some, and requiring the class to use Equilbrium's TP regen more.

Inner Beast/Steel Cyclone/Decimate/Fell Cleave - All still are instant cast, doesn't interrupt combos, but now cost 5 Warth/Abandon, but also each cost 60TP now, maybe make the aoe ones cost more TP, but idk about this idea the sametime too.
*Might nerf Warrior TP in lvl50 content, but with the Flash buff. I see no reason for a Warrior to cross-class flash if the have issues with aoe aggro/tp.

Equilibruim - While in Defiance Heal potency is reduced to 800 potency. Mainly due to Warrior as a number ways to already buff this heal. So it does feel like it needs to be reduced.

After this I would just bump the other tanks to Warriors level.


As for Dark Knight I don't have much of a opinion on it, since I rarely get to play mine, so I probably will not know better on what it lacks/needs, or what is too powerful or too weak. My main concern is about future proofing Dark Knight for future content. Personally it does feel like it does lacks a physical cd for raid content, not in dungeon content. Both are different things. Your idea to Dark Art to reduce Shadowskin/Shadow Wall should help with this, but might be hard to balance with content. I like the idea, but I don't play Dark Knight too much to know if it is too powerful or too weak to work, but my gut is leaning to it would be too strong. As for me, I personally I would like to see more HP regen skills gained from hitting mobs with Dark Knight, but that is just me, because Drk. ;p

But all these TP changes to all the tanks I would avoid personally, TP starvation has always been a thing during raiding. Why we get brds/mchs/nins in groups. Just need to make Warriors more TP hungry imo.