Tank Balance - Thordan EX 7-WAR 1-WHM Clear (Really SE?)

[Leonus]

Just seems to me, people want nerfs to tanks all the way around... nerf all 3 till they are balanced equally.

[dank1]

Dont be mad just because a decent war does more dps than a shitty dps, anything does more dps than a shitty dps

[Vogue]

Ok so, first google up Thordan EX DPS, and look at the values each member on a balanced parties are getting, focus on the off tank versus mch and bard values, or how close off tanks can be to all the other (non mch or brd) dps.

You can go ahead and say that every bard and machinist in those lists suck, and all the OT are amazing, or you can simply see that it is strange how close their values are all the time, up to you.

But either way, I am familiar with Bard dps, since that is my main, I am not ultra over geared either, but I do know that Bard DPS focus mainly on procs and critical chance, which is RNG, which leads to not a highly dependent dps, I have had openers do over 1900 dps other not even 1500, all thanks to critical chance and rng.

This is all because the potency on bard abilities isn't anywhere as strong as all other classes, I believe with machinist is the same. Now go look at DRK and WAR and check their potency, pretty high ones, with no dependence on critical or buffs cooldowns, they do have buffs to use, but not as many as bard and not as restrictive as bard since most can either used frequently and keep up at all times, other simply boost things like critical rate, which is a bonus stat since it is rng.

Anyway, study all that information first. Now, last night on a Thordan Ex party finder group we had 2 bards in it,both doing their normal 700-800+ dps (note that the values are whole fight, no resets, and there was no DRG to piercing debuff or critical buff), the dps was plenty to clear the fight, but it being a pug, people are used to killing Thordan before the last add shows up, so guess what, Dark Knight OT with multiple pink 210s from diadem decided to start complaining at the lack of dps because he was 2nd or 3rd on every try, he started to point the finger at the 2 bards which were doing normal numbers, but not as much as the black mage and/or melee.

Anyway, few tries in, every time we got to that last add, we would die form the lack of heals and this went on for a few hours before people got tired and called it.

How I see it now is that OTs are too full of themselves, and rather than understand that their dps is "meant to be" as good as mch and brd in some fights, they see it as everyone else sucks because tanks should never have more dps than a dps itself. So this leads to a rotten mentality that do not understand how other classes work, and people will kick these dps who numbers are "average" because they do not excel at the class, while you have off tanks doing crazy dps by hardly trying to do so and using this as a tool to blame weaker classes that do not have a steady DPS or are too dependent on buffs and luck.

So just think about this a little bit and blame it on whoever you want, it being the fact that BRD and MCH need some love, or the fact that OTs WAR or DRK can do pretty good numbers, or the fact that DPS classes in general need some love, or that the fights ask too much moving around, I don't know what you want to blame it on, but the fact is that if this keeps going in this direction, soon you will have BRD and MCH who do not excel at the class or are over geared, to be expel from parties because the OT is doing more damage than them, and this is all thanks to rng, mechanics that require moving around or having to take care of towers etc.

The community is to blame yes, but why give them the tools to do so?

(sorry for the block of text)

[Ashkendor]

Is it me or did they just vanished another post of Exodus on page 13 ? It's the second time I see that. So appearently people can insult him, but if he defends himself, his post gets deleted but the post insulting him remains. That's very nice.

It depends on what posts get reported. As someone that's moderated gaming forums before, I can tell you that mods rely heavily on reports (and in my case, people pm'ing about problem threads). Even forums for smaller games than this are just far too busy to go picking through every new post looking for violations. The best way to get a post removed is to click the little triangle and report it. :3

[Sunako]

Thordan is also bad example because you do not need single vitality part for that kind of content if you run with 210 ilvl in 190 ilvl content. But i agree warrior is bit superior compared other tanks. You have aggro combo in your dps rotatio while other tanks need sacrifice dps while building some extra treat, you have infinite tp while other tanks run out in 3min, you have slashing debuff that is pretty huge dps boost compared pld/drk combo if there is not ninja in the party. My suggestion would be put slashing debuff for pld Royal Authority.

[Vogue]

That is actually a pretty good idea, Sunako, it gives the paladins that extra support to other tanks, when a ninja is not present.

[Brian_]

snip

So you're concerned that bad BRDs in horrible party comps and bad tanks who don't know how to read a parser are leading to toxic situations so everyone else who isn't bad at their role or a moron should suffer for it?

That makes no sense.

http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/4#boss=1029

BRDs are obviously ahead of WARs in pure DPS output and that's not factoring in their overall raid DPS contribution through things like Foes and Battle Voice.

None of the things you proposed to blame should be things you blame. You know who I blame and who anyone with a functioning brain should blame? You blame bad players who complain about job balance before they look to improve themselves and bad posters who post misguided garbage based only on irrelevant anecdotal evidence. Seriously, "doing their normal 700-800+ dps?" You realize that's literally PLD range DPS. If that's how much damage a BRD is doing, people should be complaining. Are we really having a conversation about nerfing tank DPS to protect garbage-tier DPS players?

[Vogue]

Nobody is saying to nerf tanks, people are asking to re-balance things around.

So you are simply assuming way too many things, including the fact that a bard or machinist doing 800-900 dps in Thordan ex is a "garbage-tier DPS players", as you call them.

Maybe go and finish leveling your bard to 60, then focus in doing the content as bard and notice the differences, there are way too many tanks giving feedback about this subject when they haven't even tried the fights as anything else beside tank.

Just because the bard in your group does crazy damage, gear, latency or party constitution, doesn't mean that is the average and anyone that doesn't meet those numbers is just bad.

Anyway go back to that website you linked and create 2 pages, one for full warriors and one for full bards, both doing Thordan ex and look at the difference, a 100 or less dps difference between both classes, still find it logical? or all the Bards in that list simply suck bad, except the ones that are at the very top?

You are all spoiled people who only play with over geared players, maybe go on and swap some pieces of gear down or closer to the ilvl needed for the fight and try to do it that way and look at the dps then, the fight was made for those ilvl, not 210. You are just yet another tank who will kick a person that is not over geared for the fight, because their dps won't be as good as those who ilvl is much higher than the one required to complete it.

This is a waste of time, I only hope that the developers are thinking about it differently, not just that everyone sucks and should get better or they shouldn't try to run the content, which by the way, is not even a Raid. I am glad I don't have to deal with PF, static and a good FC is much better than rotten mentality players, who think way too highly about themselves.

[Brian_]

700-800+ DPS as a BRD on Thordan is low. That's the number range you started with. Convenient you magically bumped that up to 800-900.

You hit 60 on WAR 5 days ago and somehow that qualifies you to comment on WAR now? I guess I should finish mindlessly spamming dungeons on BRD in a day or two so that I can be qualified to talk about BRDs in end-game content. Makes sense.

I'm not basing this on the BRD in my group even though he usually does do more DPS than me. He doesn't do "crazy" damage. He does what is usual of a skilled BRD. I'm basing this off the fflogs averages. And, as I said, BRDs and MCHs provide a lot of raid DPS outside of their raw DPS numbers. Still, even without factoring in Rook / Bishop / Hypercharge / Foes / Battle Voice, etc. BRDs and MCHs both come out ahead of WARs in a fight that is incredibly favorable to WAR DPS. If you flip this and look at a fight that is instead incredibly favorable to BRDs / MCHs, the DPS is not comparable at all.

I already explained in specific CD and key GCD break-downs why Thordan EX almost couldn't get better for WAR DPS. What have you provided? Garbage. That's what.

[Vogue]

800-900 with a dragoon in a party, yes?

The 700-800 was last night on a non drg party, learn to read.

I know plenty of warriors, and hearing them say things like "I will go warrior because it does more dps than my ninja" kinda makes me chuckle, I wonder if a paladin would ever say such things. Today actually in a Thordan farm the warrior said that he better consider leveling dragoon just in case they nerf warrior.

I miss the time where a being a DPS class meant something more than just an option for those who dislike playing warrior as a dps, rather than just tank. Also, all the buffs a bard or machinist can bring to the group mean nothing in parties with full warriors, since foe as you know, is for magic attacks, ballad isn't as needed anymore, because less heals and no deaths means less mana burn, so whatever. All flaw and empty arguments, right?

I will just stop wasting my time with people like you and wait for the outcome, not every player enjoy playing balanced games anyway.