Diadem and Savage - I can't deal with it anymore

[Aarik]

First off, I admit it was wrong of me to make a broad generalization about all raiders; that being said, I suppose I should have been more specific. In particular, I was referring to the large majority of raiders responding to this thread. Most of which DO seem to be in it all for the "I'm top dog" gear. Here's just a few: "As a former raider of other games, I agree that BiS should only ever come from current top-tier raids." "Could not care any less about the story in raids. Do not like there being no gap content between dungeons and raids that drops actual gear." "In no way am I ok with giving early access to top-tier gear to people who have put no effort forth in obtaining it. Void Ark and i200 gear is fine. But this Diadem i210 better than raid gear BS is a joke." That's just a few quotes from the first 3 pages of this thread, and there are MANY more. While not all raiders are in it for the "I'm better than you" gear, a large majority on here, ARE. Sorry I didn't clarify.

[Ladon]

First off, I admit it was wrong of me to make a broad generalization about all raiders; that being said, I suppose I should have been more specific. In particular, I was referring to the large majority of raiders responding to this thread. Most of which DO seem to be in it all for the "I'm top dog" gear. Here's just a few: "As a former raider of other games, I agree that BiS should only ever come from current top-tier raids." "Could not care any less about the story in raids. Do not like there being no gap content between dungeons and raids that drops actual gear." "In no way am I ok with giving early access to top-tier gear to people who have put no effort forth in obtaining it. Void Ark and i200 gear is fine. But this Diadem i210 better than raid gear BS is a joke." That's just a few quotes from the first 3 pages of this thread, and there are MANY more. While not all raiders are in it for the "I'm better than you" gear, a large majority on here, ARE. Sorry I didn't clarify.

Of course most of us are in it for the gear. Do you not realize that raising your ilevel in this game is the only way to advance your character at the level cap? Do you really think raiders are farming endgame stuff for the sole joy of it?

Sorry but you can't really turn this into a negative. Are you going to turn this around and tell me non-raiders aren't in it for the gear? Is that why they throw a fit when it is suggested that top tier raids also drop exclusive top tier gear? I thought you were in it for the fun. It shouldn't really matter to you if Savage gear was bumped up to i215 should it?

[FeliAiko]

Those quotes are from the viewpoint that the best gear should come from the hardest content, where effort skill and coordination are required, which is only logical. A viewpoint you yourself agreed with.

The subject matter is Diadem and its impact on Savage, so of course you're going to see replies from people bringing up the gear. However, the gear wasn't the only issue the OP brought up. It just ended up being the last straw for him, and it's not hard to see why.

[Aarik]

Snip

Honestly, I was just clearing up what I said in a prior post; that I over-generalized, then corrected myself. In response to FeliAiko's "Those quotes are from the viewpoint that the best gear should come from the hardest content, where effort skill and coordination are required, which is only logical. A viewpoint you yourself agreed with.", yes, I do agree that time, effort, and risk should be rewarded appropriately. I've only done diadem 3 times, after which I will never return; it was mind-numbingly boring. I don't tend to do the top-tier raids either, though I did try AS1....and it was the exact same as A1 just with one helluva dps check, didn't appeal to me at all so dropped that. Returning to the point, time/effort/risk should be rewarded. For raiders, the reward is still there, albeit marginalized due to diadem. Yet let us use your argument for crafters; time; optimizing your crafting classes takes WAY more time than any other content; we're talking easily hundreds of hours each 'upgrade' patch. Effort; admittedly crafting does not take anywhere near the skill running raids does, that's easy to admit, though you still need to pay close attention and plan ahead. Risk? There is FAR more risk involved for crafting than any other discipline in this game, bar none. Want to optimize your gear? Best craft those class-specific, item-gated equipment. You fail to HQ them? Well you've just thrown away millions. Repeat for every craft. Then you get to pentameld ALL OF THEM. Fail a meld? Could easily be 100k loss. 9% success rate on many, many items means many, many fails. As far as risk goes, crafting is king. That being said, should we not be rewarded for it? Yet all we have to show for our efforts is, at best, glamour gear. This was my entire point; while yes, raid rewards have been marginalized, at least you have SOMETHING to look forward to.

[Gardes]

Of course most of us are in it for the gear. Do you not realize that raising your ilevel in this game is the only way to advance your character at the level cap? Do you really think raiders are farming endgame stuff for the sole joy of it?

Sorry but you can't really turn this into a negative. Are you going to turn this around and tell me non-raiders aren't in it for the gear? Is that why they throw a fit when it is suggested that top tier raids also drop exclusive top tier gear? I thought you were in it for the fun. It shouldn't really matter to you if Savage gear was bumped up to i215 should it?

People should be crafting for the fun of it. It shouldn't matter if the items they produce is useless because if they really enjoy crafting, they shouldn't care. What matters is the process right?

[Yurihyuga]

I think people should stop bashing on diadem to be honest while yes it has the potential to have better gear it is a catch up patch when the next tier is released and i reckon it will be 230 gear diadem won't get 230 gear until the next catch up patch the "casuals" will still only be able to get 210 gear via the normal methods while getting 220 tome gear and if they want 230 gear they have to raid or wait till the next catch up. So please for the love of god stop whining and for the people struggling with the dps checks in savage tier 1 will be able to go in with much better gear to start touching on the 2nd tier.

It is as simple as that - raiders will have the best gear temporarily as it has been since 2.0.

[Astral145]

The story of Alexander is pretty bad but I love the fact I can que up in df and run it especially now with 8 jobs at 60. I really wish Coils had this option back in 2.0+. I would love to run Savage but unfortunately I do not have the time to get a static together and run it hence why I love the regular mode in df. I can understand raiders wanting to have savage mode right off the rip along with the normal mode and I think SE should implement that so raiders can go through it the way they want. But I do not want gear to be gated only behind savage mode. I like to raid as well but unfortunately RL will not allow me to so this is the next best thing.

Those that hate the fact that Diadem gives out BiS (if lucky) as well needs to go sit in a corner somewhere and think about it. Diadem will most likely not start giving out 220 - 230 gear till the next savage mode has been out for several months. By the time Diadem gets an update it wouldn't really mater. This is why I hate the system we have for gear now. Gear gets outdated way to quickly with or w/out Diadem. This is why I would love to have a horizontal progression system which would always place Raid gear in BiS no matter what.

Horizontal progression systems usually places unique traits on gear that enhances your skills. And after some time wearing said gear the traits become permanent. This type of gear is usually found in the hardest content in the game which will always put raiders ahead for a long time. And as new raids come out new and better traits become available or they enhance the traits you already earned through previous raids.

Either way you look at it Diadem and current savage gear will become outdated in just a few patches... it is what it is so to get salty over a few sub stats on gear doesn't change the current system. And honestly sub stats on gear doesn't change much either way. A player that has worked their butts off in savage raids will always out shine non raiding players. The reason for this is a raider will practice and practice on there job rotations to the point that mistakes are rarely made. You can always tell a non raider vs raider and its not by gear. You can give both groups of players the exact same gear and you will be able to tell within the first 10 seconds and you wont need a parser either.

There is no reason to get salty over gear... a real raider loves to raid because the challenge of clearing them is more than enough satisfaction... gear is just icing on the cake. There is no real set stats or shall I say there really is no such thing as BiS. This term is made up.... Foe example higher the Crit value you have the higher the chance you will land a crit but if you start sacrifice Skill/Spell speed or det the lower your over all dps could be, and the reason for this is because you are not guaranteed a crit. So really BiS is a made up term to make players feel like a special snowflake. A real raider knows that gear only enhances your dps but your over all dps is only reflected by how well you know that class and by how much time you practiced and practiced and practiced and I don't mean just standing behind a dummy and hitting it, I mean actually experimenting with multiple rotations and seeing what is actually happening when you apply certain skills.

So please stop crying over sub stats because it really doesn't matter with the current system we have. Now if we had a horizontal progression system that places rare and unique traits on gear then I can see Diadem being a huge freaking problem. Because normally in horizontal progression systems the BiS gear is found in the hardest content.

[starLivitation]

I just entered the first coil other day to help a few people in PF looking to complete their story. having not entered in many months, i remembered the joys of raidnig the old coil going everyweek to run thru turn3 alone was actualy fun. jumping around cluelessly with my static. the music alone was amazing. when i compared to alexander, what is that shit? shitty music that feel like some sort of teenage mutant ninja turle theme with goblins instead of turtles, shitty bosses that are lifeless machines, add that almost look the same from first turn to 4th turn. 3rd turn adds looking like slimes recycled. all of the turns looking almost identical. it's very sillly design and boring.

hell even FFXI had fantastic boss themes/music better than alexander! here a few examples :
toji a dog boss from hell : https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...PceibMEMk#t=11
Abysta final boss Shinru : https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...FFQqUJDM#t=269
shadowlord theme : https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...4ch563Wp0#t=43
Cop Final boss : https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...vpoY4UhN8#t=96

Come on SE u can do a better theme than alexander, we know u can !!

[zosia]

I think people should stop bashing on diadem to be honest while yes it has the potential to have better gear it is a catch up patch when the next tier is released and i reckon it will be 230 gear diadem won't get 230 gear until the next catch up patch the "casuals" will still only be able to get 210 gear via the normal methods while getting 220 tome gear and if they want 230 gear they have to raid or wait till the next catch up. So please for the love of god stop whining and for the people struggling with the dps checks in savage tier 1 will be able to go in with much better gear to start touching on the 2nd tier.

It is as simple as that - raiders will have the best gear temporarily as it has been since 2.0.

Yeah, the part you don't get is that raiders don't get full 220 or 230 gear day one of the new raid coming in 3.2. It can take a few months (even more if we look at alex savage) for raiders to get this high end gear. By the time most raiders get a full set, the "catch up" patch comes along before we can even savor the rewards of our hard work.

Why would it be so bad for the ilvl catch up gear come out with each new installment of the 8-man raiding content? So, instead of having catch up every 3 months, having it every six months. Obviously gear progression would need to be tweaked for a six month duration, such as giving casual players a way to get ilvl 205 if raid gear is ilvl210. That's how it works in virtually every other vertical progression mmo.

So please stop crying over sub stats because it really doesn't matter with the current system we have. Now if we had a horizontal progression system that places rare and unique traits on gear then I can see Diadem being a huge freaking problem. Because normally in horizontal progression systems the BiS gear is found in the hardest content.

You admit this point and don't get why raiders are salty? Literally every other MMO I have played (WoW, ff11, guild wars, guild wars 2, perfect world, etc etc), from horizontal to vertical progression, the best gear, glamours, effects, traits, and stats generally come from the hardest content.

Alex savage gear is not unique in it's look, it's just dyable while the coolest color palate is the default color to normal gear.
Alex savage gear does not come with the highest stats despite alex savage being the current raid tier.
Alex savage gear comes with no special effects.
Unless you like mounts, there is no reason outside of bragging rights to finish alex savage right now. The relic weapon is a few weeks away and the last bit of value found in alex savage will be lost.

A raid tier should not lose 95% of it's intrinsic value while it's the current raid tier. I never cared in those other games when catch up gear was given out because I had a new raid to work on. The catch up system in other games usually come out with a new raid tier, so everyone is happy, raiders and non-raiders alike. This catch up BS coming out three months before the next raid tier is just a crappy way to conduct the reward schedule of this game.

[gzuscry]

Its realy sad to read all those raiders and to realize (i knew it from very beggining) that they are sooooo petty about that one single special carrot called the exlusive gear, not only exclusive they want it to be the best. And they only care about best gear, they dont care for personal chalenge and the feeling of 'I CAN DO IT', noo-- if the best gear comes from farming lvl1 monsters they would farm it all day without ever setting foot in any other content. People like those are the ones that, lets say, never climb the everest, because you know there is no special gold loot chest. The only thing on their minds is to have this one bling to shine all over the place to make them feel like they are some kind of god bestowed kings. Its very boring to play with such ppl they are the one that speed, mass pull everything and are first to complain. It is very funny to see those raiders emerge at predictable time when that hard content is clearable stably with general error margin included (call it an intended gear-up). And they poison every single content they set foot in. If I could I would blacklist them globaly, to never be included in their parties and even to never read their comments in forum also to never let my comments (opinion) get in their way, because simply to me they are empty spaces or atleast i would preffer to eliminate them from any form of virtual, physical interactions.

Personaly i think best gear should never be in raid, that is one of the worst places to place stat-oriented gear reward, because the very fact is that raid is hard and you need the best gear to clear it. Current equation of gear acquisition is perpetualy constructed in a way that after your first clear or bis gear upgrade you are ever further driven away from incentive to help other/later player, for you content is accelerated (and that means constant acceleration) from there onward, but the one who comes later is driven further and further away from getting on the stage of equal footing.
Imagine a sports where disciplines first occrurance first prize would be better gear for next discipline so the one who comes first in the first discipline is praticaly set to win every other that follows and the gap grows with each race , becasue statwise (and stats are the only thing that practicaly matter) he is better set win. This is the current situation in the gear placement in the game and sadely this treand is accross practicaly every MMO there is where there is some RPG elemnt attached with stat growth.