Are my mitigation numbers off ?

[Kabooa]

ADS is definitely magic only. Its autoattacks are lightning magic.

other stuff

The only relevant boss atm that is magic only (with the exception of a buster) is The Manipulator though.

This would explain why the black mage gets thwacked for 12k where the dragoon got thwacked for 14k.

Even so, we're presented with a flawed view of how to value mitigation in FF14. There's a fairly excellent thread that details FF14's overall approach to boss-to-tank interaction, which tends to be on scripted tank busters with only moderate-to-above-moderate auto attacks. This coupled with the fairly unexciting and mostly ineffective 'tank stat' scaling is why we see macho beef tanks. It simply isn't required to have 'great average mitigation', which this thread is pointing out.

in terms of tank buster mitigation, the tanks are all in the same ball park. It's skewed towards Dark Knight since they tend to be magic busters right now (Dark Mind op), but how quickly the tables turn if they were all physical busters.

Hell, you throw a 30 second physical tank buster onto a boss, and suddenly paladin is the only 'viable' choice as your second tank. This is completely discounting that any weaknesses in one tank's kit can be made up for with some utility from another raid member. (GG Apocastasis; You're a Dark Knight for 10 seconds every 3 minutes!)

[Xyphon]

Honestly the easiest solution is make the shields actually have an actual defense rating, like armor. That was removed from 1.0. I realize that the block rate/block amount is supposed to be similar; but there's no excuse for all three tanks having the exact same base physical defense. Especially when two of them wield two handed weapons.

In terms of flashes blindness, I believe its only a -% to a mobs accuracy (like somewhere around 20%). Its not a 100% chance they will miss. If it was 100% chance to miss, then we'd be talking differently about pld (like FFXI flash).

Flash should have never been able to use as a cross class in the first place. Especially now that war has steel cyclone/decimate, and overpower. Drk has unleash, and abyssal drain.

[Reynhart]

If it was 100% chance to miss, then we'd be talking differently about pld (like FFXI flash).

No, we wouldn't...since bosses are immune to blind.

And, yes, shields should have a fixed defense value.

Hell, you throw a 30 second physical tank buster onto a boss, and suddenly paladin is the only 'viable' choice as your second tank.

"Hi, I'm Inner Beast, I'm a 300 potency skill, and I can pop more often than Sheltron"

[Kabooa]

"Hi, I'm Inner Beast, I'm a 300 potency skill, and I can pop more often than Sheltron"

Did we suddenly stop assuming that warriors are always your first tank, or are we just assuming that warrior is now the only tank? I'm honestly all for buffing the other tanks (But then you get an issue of effectiveness vs identity), but if you'd prefer, we can bust the warrior down a few notches, or make the tankbuster so ridiculously tailored to paladins that you have to have one, but nobody wants either of those scenarios.

[Cabalabob]

Hi everyone.

I'm still hearing here and there that PLD is THE mitigation tank.
So, I've made a little calculation, and the results really bug me.

Let's see what each tank can do on "average" mitigation : Mitigation*(Duration/Recast)
(For the sake of calculation, we'll put each tank on an appropriate target. Block and Parry can be fully used, as well as Magical mitigation, tank will also fully focused on mitigation, so 100% uptime for mitigation comboes)

PLD:

• Rampart : 20*(20/90) = 4.44%
• Sentinel : 40*(10/180) = 2.22%
• Bulwark : (Let's be generous and consider 100% Block rate for the 15s) 30*(15/180) = 2.5
• Sheltron : 30*(3/30) = 3% (3s is close enough to cover "one hit")
• Rage Of Halone : 10% (I thinks its a little lower, but can't find the proper number)
• Hallowed Ground : 100*(10/420) = 2.38%

Total active mitigation : 24,55%

WAR:

• Storm's Path : 10%
• Vengeance : 30*(15/120) = 3.75%
• Inner Beast : 20*(6/15) = 8% (With a GCD on 2.5 seconds, you can do 24 GCD during each Infuriate, so 8 combos. Without any additionnal CD, 8 combos gives you 16 stacks of Wrath, so at least 3 Inner Beast + 1 from Infuriate. So one each 15s on average)
• Raw Intuition : 20*(20/90) = 4.44%
• Since Holmgang is not really a "mitigation" skill, I won't include it

Total active mitigation : 26,19%

DRK:

• Shadowskin : 20*(20/90) = 4.44%
• Shadow Wall : 30*(10/180) = 1.67%
• Reprisal : (Since Dark Dance has a 60s recast, and you can at least have one parry on its duration, I'll count one Reprisal per minute) 10*(20/60) = 3.33%
• Dark Dance : (A bit tricky, but with a proper set, you can probably parry half the hits during its duration, so, around 10s of mitigation) 20*(10/60) = 3.33%
• Dark Mind : (All with Dark Arts, since mitigation is the main goal) 30*(10/60) = 5%
• Delirium : 10% (See Rage Of Halone above)
• Walking Dead : (See Holmgang)

Total active mitigation : 27,78%

Ok, I know some numbers are only approximations, especially for unreliable CD, and I know that PLD offers an additionnal passive mitigation with Shield+Parry, but isn't it a bit odd that PLD is probably the lowest when it comes to active mitigation ?

Also, I've purposefully left Holmgang and Walking Dead so WAR and DRK keep their "Oh, shit !" button available while accumulating more active mitigation than PLD.

So, did I really screwed my calculation, or is PLD talking the low end even when it comes to mitigation ?

A major problem I see with your test is you've included magical and physical cooldowns on an equal footing when they're not.

First off if you include Magic cooldowns you can't include physical because they're mutually exclusive, for example if dark mind is mitigating for 100% of its uptime then block and parry and foresight will be 0% effective for their uptime.

Another issue is that outside of a few fights, magic is fairly rare, dark mind won't be useful every time it is off cooldown, but by calculating recast compared to duration you're assuming it is and with its low cooldown that is going to seriously boost the numbers. On top of this dark arts won't always be available every time you use dark mind so that can fluctuate the numbers for that which you can't really account for.

I think you need to do 2 charts for an all physical opponent and an all magical opponent and then maybe try to get an average out of those to estimate a mixed opponent.

Also, you didn't include foresight, yes all 3 can use it but WAR gets an enhanced version.

[Reynhart]

Did we suddenly stop assuming that warriors are always your first tank

We're assuming that WAR is always the Main Tank, which is as flawed as when people tought PLD was always the main tank.
And stacking two WARs is not as bad as two PLDs or two DRKs, because you can have 100% uptime for both Storm's Path and Storm's Eye

I think you need to do 2 charts for an all physical opponent and an all magical opponent and then maybe try to get an average out of those to estimate a mixed opponent.

I can. There's still a problem.
How do I include Holmgang and Living Dead, since they're still a big part of how tanks can survive ?

[Cabalabob]

I can. There's still a problem.
How do I include Holmgang and Living Dead, since they're still a big part of how tanks can survive ?

There is one way, but it is absurd.

You can assume the tanks have 2hp.

That way holmgang is 100% mitigation for 6 seconds (as any damage taken while at 1hp is technically being mitigated). And walking dead will instantly proc upon use of living dead and the DRK can heal Max hp exactly on the 10 second mark with souleater or bloodbath, making it 10 seconds of 100% mitigation for the same reason as holmgang. Hallowed ground remains unaffected because it is 100% mitigation no matter what.

Short of that you can't include them, unless the tank is at 1hp living dead and holmgang aren't actually doing anything. To include them when they're not doing anything because they're a big part of how the tank survives is a slippery slope as the same can be said for convalesence, it isn't doing anything unless they are getting cured but it is a big part of how tanks survive.

[winsock]

Some feedback:

Defiance vs Enhanced Convalescence
if you're counting Defiance as mitigation, you should prolly take enhanced convalescence into acct.

Stoneskin
Def a rough skill for a paper calculation. Paper is always tricky though. Realistically a PLD wouldnt be like: RoH combo ->stoneskin(s) -> RoH, but a WAR wouldnt IB 4 times a min either.

Enhanced Awareness
PLD should get something for this

PLD's passive block
^ might as well include this. It wouldn't be too shocking to see a class with the highest passive mitigation have lower active mitigation.

Dark Dance vs Dark Mind and Delirium
These number conflict with eachother. While on PLD it makes sense to calc as if the dmg is all physical, here the dmg source would NEED to be split which lowers the cumulative effectiveness of these skills. For example, if incoming dmg was split 50/50 between magic and physical, Delirium would mitigate 10% of 50% of the total incoming dmg, meaning the overall mitigation would be 5%. For an easy paper comparison, i might just drop the dark dance percentage from the overall calculation, but keep reprisal. splitting the dmg source like: 99.99 magic / 0.01 physical. Of course, this would lower the DRK's total passive mitigation

[Reynhart]

Points about cross class action

Yes, I can include them, but the numbers aren't really easy to obtain. And since they're available for all tanks, with enhanced version for either PLD or WAR, I don't think it would change much for them. But DRK would be a little lower.

It wouldn't be too shocking to see a class with the highest passive mitigation have lower active mitigation.

Well, since PLD has 1) the lowest MT DPS, 2) the lowest OT DPS, 3) the lowest AoE DPS of every job in the game, 4) the lowest single enmity gain and 5) the lowest AoE enmity gain, yes, it would be petty to deny it the best active mitigation just because he has the highest passive mitigation.