Are my mitigation numbers off ?

[eagledorf]

It really didn't work half as well as mitigation. Like you needed enough gear to actually survive DS in order to get healed or use IB while a PLD could just survive with a cooldown+Stoneskin with substantially less gear and then power through the disease debuff (and apparently SE couldn't foresee that). For casual stuff like Titan, yes you're right that the core problem was basically just that IB depleted your Wrath so you lost the healing buff, which was a stupid design decision, but it was pretty much doable with reasonably similar gear.

For DRK I was hoping that...mitigation would deplete MP somehow for an active style of play. Right now it's just an MP cost to double the effectiveness of one cooldown and then the rest is all for DPS (except in dungeons I guess) and sort of happens automatically.

[Reynhart]

Even your #s for rampart/sentinel are off since 2 forms of the same reduction are multiplicative not additive.

No, they're not. Rampart reduces 20% of the damage you would have taken without it. The fact that those damage are already reduced from the "initial" damage is irrelevant for the sake of comparing tanks, since, again, the three stances give you the same eHP.

It really didn't work half as well as mitigation. Like you needed enough gear to actually survive DS in order to get healed or use IB while a PLD could just survive with a cooldown+Stoneskin with substantially less gear and then power through the disease debuff (and apparently SE couldn't foresee that).

Even with average gear, I've never fell from full HP to under 20% HP (Without cooldown) with a single Death Sentence, so WAR could survive each hit by having their HP almost full beforehand and proper application of Stoneskin/Succor. And the proper healing boost and self-healing would have allowed you to replenish your health to full before the next DS.
In the current state of the game, it means that healers would be focused on healing you, so they would have less time to do some additionnal damage. With a PLD, they would have more room to cast some offensive spells.

I would also change Inner Beast so that any HP that "overheals" you go directly into your HP max, like some kind of barrier.

[Giantbane]

I'm not sure that self-healing really didn't work.
The problem was that Defiance (by itself) was clearly weaker than Shield Oath. To be on par, you had to keep all your Wrath, but by doing this, you couldn't use Inner Beast...
So, basically, to use your self-healing, you had to withdraw your healing boost...
If WAR had kept the same self-healing abilities (And they're even better now with Equilibrium) AND their current healing boost, they probably wouldn't need that much "mitigation".

As for DRK, I really think it should have been more interesting to give them a "spike" stance, where each time you're hit, you reflect a fragment of the damage (20% and capped by your HP max) and leech for the same amount. Which would have also been their major mean of DPSing, so their personal skills would have their potency reduced, for balance purpose.

You would have to do something goofy where DRK's damage done was based off the DRK's stats, but the leech was based off the incoming damage. If you do what you're suggesting, then DRK damage would scale based off the boss's outgoing damage instead of his own gear.

This recreates the situation you had in 2.0 where PLD's flat mitigation scaled off the boss attacks (% of boss damage was reduced) where the WAR's leech effects scaled off of the WAR's gear (Inner Beast leech strength). This made the PLD godly for progression because his was less gear dependent, while the WAR needed to gear up to be anything close to equivalent.

You'd get the same thing with DRK and DPS checks for enrages.

[Reynhart]

You would have to do something goofy where DRK's damage done was based off the DRK's stats, but the leech was based off the incoming damage. If you do what you're suggesting, then DRK damage would scale based off the boss's outgoing damage instead of his own gear.

Wrong, the DRK would have to gear for survival. To reflect the damage, you have to survive it first, so you would cling to any HP upgrade you can.

And again, the problem with WAR was not the scaling, but the bad synergy between Wrath and Inner Beast. It was stupid to sacrifice your healing boost for self-healing, of your self-healing for healing boost. If WAR could have used both at the same time, I'm sure it wouldn't have any problem clearing all content.

[Giantbane]

Wrong, the DRK would have to gear for survival. To reflect the damage, you have to survive it first, so you would cling to any HP upgrade you can.

And again, the problem with WAR was not the scaling, but the bad synergy between Wrath and Inner Beast. It was stupid to sacrifice your healing boost for self-healing, of your self-healing for healing boost. If WAR could have used both at the same time, I'm sure it wouldn't have any problem clearing all content.

You're misunderstanding. At the beginning of progression, everybody has the "low" (relative to that raid tier) ilvl gear because you haven't collected any drops from the new dungeon or collected any of the new tomestones. There's no getting around it. Everybody gets the same general HP (or eHP) levels.

The difference is that at the beginning of a new raid tier, DRK would get a DPS boost immediately due to the increase in boss damage. The PLD/WAR would have to wait for gear to match it.

[Reynhart]

The difference is that at the beginning of a new raid tier, DRK would get a DPS boost immediately due to the increase in boss damage. The PLD/WAR would have to wait for gear to match it.

Yes, and it would be far more risky that the other two tank...
Less defensive, more offensive...I don't see a problem here.

Besides, if you only reflect 20% of the damage, it means you get hit for 5 times this amount.
I don't think tanks really suffer that much damage...ever.

[Giantbane]

For casual stuff like Titan, yes you're right that the core problem was basically just that IB depleted your Wrath so you lost the healing buff, which was a stupid design decision, but it was pretty much doable with reasonably similar gear.

PLD were MTing it in i50-i60 gear since they'd have cooldowns ready for most of the tank busters and constant blocks. That was a more difficult feat to pull of with the WAR.

Yes, and it would be far more risky that the other two tank...
Less defensive, more offensive...I don't see a problem here.

It's a balancing headache because you've got surviability and DPS intertwined, but only for one job. The other two jobs would scale separately.

You'd end up with either the DRK too good or the DRK not good enough and would be very difficult to find a middle ground.

[Februs]

Taking Shield Swipe off GCD was a good change. It adds the same amount of DPS as Spirits Within/Circle of Scorn in single target (~50 with a Thordan weapon and STR accessories).

Firstly, I never said that the change to Shield Swipe was a Dps loss on single targets. I actually said that it was a Dps gain on bosses (single targets). Of this there is no doubt. However, that does not mean that it is a "good" change, and it does not change the fact that it is absolutely a Dps loss when Mob tanking in dungeons.

To give you some perspective, the way it is right now and assuming 100% proc rate at 15s (which is highly unlikely since the restriction ensures you cannot use Bulwark and Shelltron efficiently, but whatever) you can use 2 complete RoH combos (2.5s recast speed per move, x3 = (7.5s) x2 = 15s) for every single use of Shield Swipe. Now, with the combo potencies of Fast Blade (150), Savage Blade (200) and RoH (260) that averages out to a total combo potency of 1220 in which the first move of every combo does not generate enmity.

Compare that to pre 3.1 in which you could replace every RoH with Shield Swipe: Shield Swipes old combo potency (before the 3.1 nerf) was 210). Assuming a 100% proc rate (which, I should point out, was actually possible to achieve before 3.1 by using Bulwark and Shelltron efficiently), you would be using 6 Shield Swipes. This totals out to 1260 potency in which every single hit generates enmity. That's more dmg than RoH and more enmity gen than RoH when Mob Tanking, assuming you know what you're doing and are rotating targets accordingly.

Now, you're right (and wrong...actually. Goring Blade is NOT a Pld's highest potency move. Royal Authority trumps it with a total combined potency of 680, as opposed to Goring Blade's combined potency of 640, including the DoT) to say that using Goring Blade is the best way to boost Mob Dps using Pld, but, compared to before, it is far less efficient. You were able before to cycle Shield Swipe between each GB's, your Dmg output was much higher than rotating Flash to keep mob aggro. In place of this, you advocate for:

a couple of Flashes followed by a buffed Circle of Scorn, with another Flash or two later for the blind. I don't need the tiny damage reduction from having Halone up on 2.5 targets, or from pacification.

For holding enmity, sure. That's fine, but if you had to use any more than ONE Flash to hold mob enmity before the 3.1 nerf than you were most certainly NOT maximizing your Dps output, and it's really not hard to work out the math on that. Flash Does ZERO dmg and still delays your primary combo. A rotated Shield Swipe combo delays your primary, but far exceeds Flash and even RoH in Dps.

Lastly (and this is the nitpicky stuff), you cannot compare Shield Swipe to CoS or Spirits within. For one, CoS does 100 potency (+30 with DoT) on ALL targets. Unless you are only tanking one or two mobs at a time for some bizarre reason, Shield Swipe could never compare to the combined potency or enmity of CoS. Comparing Shield Swipe to Spirits Within is a little better (if we are only concerned with Boss Dps increase), but, again, in terms of mob tanking the two moves are incompatible. Spirit's Within is purely for Dmg and has neutral enmity. Shield Swipe is supposed to be a enmity gain (it doubles utility in the sense of mob tanking). The two moves don't have a comparable function unless in a boss environment.

Now, I'm not just saying this stuff to be like "change is bad, yo!" Most Pld's actually like the change because it's easier. It's basically a one and done button now. You don't really have to think about the best way to use it because there is only one way, but it does not mean that the one way is universally better. The numbers back it up, and have been worked out before by other people who put a lot more detail in it than I just did. Even in Boss environments, the change to Shield Swipe can shackle a Pld, because the amount of Dps they gain from the OGCD is potentially nerfed by the amount of TP they stand to lose. A full spec'd Pld can burn their Tp bar dry in under 3 minutes. What do you think they do when it's empty? Flash. Clemency... that's pretty much it. Both moves don't even do dmg, so overall dps is greatly reduced. The only option is to look for opportunities to interrupt their own combos. Meaning Pld's have to find ways to sabotage their own rotation just to stay in the fight... that's better how, exactly?

Not to mention the killed utility of Bulwark and Shelltron. Due to the OGCD, Plds can no longer efficiently plan the use of each move to maximize utility, because shield swipe might be on cooldown or just proc by itself. Bulwark can only get ONE use out of Sheild Swipe anyway, so it's not even worth saving. Both moves are now used on GC, instead of used as a means of boosting Pld's abilities and conserving TP (as it used to be common for Pld's to utilize Bulwark to proc additional Shield Swipes to keep their Tp bar from flat lining).

This isn't, necesarrily, a bad change. It could be good... but not alone. @GiantBane was right about that. Without additional changes to justify the massive dip in utility caused by this change, it's nothing but a nerf to any Pld who actually knew how to maximize their utility.

[Reynhart]

You'd end up with either the DRK too good or the DRK not good enough and would be very difficult to find a middle ground.

It would require testing, sure.
But I think it would have been more interesting than a magical PLD painted in black, even though DRK has become my main since 3.0.

[CGMidlander]

I love how you include Dark Mind when it only affects magic damage even though you're taking an 'average mitigation per second' approach to this given that 99% of the attacks a tank takes at any time is -physical damage-.

There is no Boss currently in game that does only magic damage.

Edit*: Wait, no Vault guy. There is no Raid* Boss currently in game that does only magic damage. Pending a quick research Edit** may appear soon!

Edit**: Node enemies in Coil apparently, but I'm half certain ADS still does physical auto attacks.

ADS is definitely magic only. Its autoattacks are lightning magic.

If you look at trials/24m, there are some more examples. (However irrelevant they might be now)
Ultima Weapon is magic only.
Ramuh is magic only.
Nabriales is magic only.
Cloud of Darkness is magic only.

The only relevant boss atm that is magic only (with the exception of a buster) is The Manipulator though.