PLD - I seem to have misplaced my DPS

[Aiio]

I've been reading through forums for ideas about how the PLD class feels lackluster with the current content, and in hope that they do take players' feedback seriously, decided to write something in the forums hoping that they (devs) might take notice.

Also a disclosure, I don't have any history playing MMORPGs prior to joining FFXIV in late August this year - as such my ideas may be reflect signs of ignorance so any constructive feedback would be welcome.

Intro

Before I begin talking about class balancing, a slight preamble on hardcore gaming versus casual gaming. The general understanding on hardcore content is that any "hardcore" content is much more difficult than casual content. The increase of difficulty should be noticeable between jumping from casual content into hardcore content.
So how does one go about making things difficult? - or a look from another angle, what makes a player successful in this game?
1. Mistake + Punishment mechanics
The most noticeable in both casual and hardcore content. Make a mistake executing any mechanics and detriment your chance to clear the instance. Moving into hardcore content shows that mistakes often leads to extremely low chances of clearing content, which I'm sure the majority of the player base will agree - there is nothing wrong with this.
2. Maximizing your class
This is where it may cause some debate on how future content should be updated, because in most cases, maximizing your class means maximizing your DPS output. It also means knowing when to use certain abilities at certain times, which may coincide with point 1 (such as CD management, stance dancing, etc).
3. Finding other players
I often find this point is overlooked by many (or maybe not?), including whether or not people want to take in other players that main classes that do not synchronize well with other classes, etc.
As you can see, there are many various factors that may attribute to what makes in game content difficult to achieve. I would like to highlight the importance of point 2 (DPS) and its relevancy to point 3 (difficulty finding party) due to the inability of usefulness that PLD brings to a party.

Encounters and Compatibility

Hearing "we are aware that the Paladin class is not very useful in current content" highlights the importance of where a class stands in terms of balance against current content. However, releasing new content that would allow PLDs skill-set to shine is, in my opinion, the wrong way to go.

Why?

DPS is the bottom line - The importance of 0%
No matter which way you look at it, successfully completing mechanics, increasing durability as a tank, the end result to clear content requires you to beat things from 100% to 0%.
Clearing content can only be done when there is nothing remaining - 0%. If your class is unable to directly contribute to the 0% (i.e., DPS) then your job should be able to support others in the party in achieving that 0%. Thus, DPS is the bottom line. A quick example of this would be Thordan EX.

- PLD mitigates more damage, meaning more cleric stance (DPS increase)
- PLD mitigates more damage, meaning healers are able to ensure survival of DPS (DPS increase)
- DRK contributes more direct DPS (DPS increase)
- DRK requires more healing (DPS loss equalized by direct DPS input)

As such, we can see that whilst DRK is (arguably) less effective than PLD clearing Thordan EX, it is still at an adequate level that makes content clearing fair on DRK players. So in content with high DPS checks like A4S, what does the PLD achieve that the DRK/WAR cannot, what does it offer in trade for DPS? If the bottom line is the 0%, does PLD offer anything that can contribute to that 0% that compensates for its DPS loss? Is it stable enough to be called a fair trade? It is apparent from end-game content that taking a PLD in most cases is an aggregate loss of DPS (progress) for the party - as well as discouraging parties from picking PLD over other tanks.

Thus, PLD skills need to be reworked - tweaked so that it allows for a change between the triangle of tanks, rather than WAR + MT. The changes must be made so that whilst it may not be optimal to run PLD all the time, it should still fairly progress through end game with the other two tank classes, much like DRK/WAR currently do.

A multitude of ideas come to mind, but I'll try list the ones I think are most interesting:

Spirits Within
- Increase potency to 500, with minimum potency to 300
- Reverse effect, potency gained as HP reduces
- TP restore of 50
Note: Allows for DPS increase as MT without need to change shield oath whilst adding interesting mechanic of HP management/timing. TP problems also fixed as both MT/OT.

Clemency
- Surecast effect added
- Able to block whilst casting
- Casting clemency does not break combos
Note: Useful for healing in a pinch! DPS loss only for 3 second downtime of casting. Block while casting for some nice synergy with Sheltron?

Divine Veil
- Self-healing procs Veil
- Veil AOE increased to 25y
- CD reduced to 90sec
Note: Current Divine Veil range is too restrictive. I'm not exactly sure on the best CD for this skill.

Tempered Will
- Provides Determination up 15% to self and party
- CD reduced to 120 sec
- Range 25y
Note: The only real DPS increase for PLD whilst OT. Extra raid utility, similar to Battle Litany. Decided to remove the ability to only use it in SwO.

Sword/Shield Oath
- Still on GCD, 1.5 second cooldown rather than 3 seconds
Note: The switching between stances gives a clunky feeling, that also breaks combos which lead to DPS loss. Thus, to compensate for this, the cooldown before using any other abilities has been reduced.

Overall, I think this would increase the DPS of PLD when MT (a huge problem in comparison to DRK/WAR MT), whilst also increasing the general utility and raid DPS when played as OT. Rather than directly making up for the lesser DPS achievable compared to DRK/WAR, the aim was to increase raid DPS through utility whilst also adhering to the mitigation king (for party) with Divine Veil changes.

Extras

VIT versus STR - the identity of tanking
The fact that VIT is only useful to the point that allows you to comfortably tank "tankbusters" in a controlled and timed environment means that any further stacking of VIT means little. Much like accuracy (and possibly skill speed), because this attribute has no secondary calculation (such as an increase to DEF/M.DEF per VIT). This is a very broad point addressing damage calculations which I believe should be revised completely - rather than PLD specific but still an important issue for PLD nonetheless. This also brings to light other attributes such as shields and parry playing almost non-factors in mitigation (especially magic damage).
This point is more an addressing of job identity as any tank class - which coincides well with PLD as the "mitigation king" or "defensive tank".

Conclusion
Thanks for reading (if you did LOL), sorry about the length and I hope it was adequately organized to optimize your read. End point is that I feel (and probably much of the player base) that PLD offers lackluster aggregate DPS whether that be from utility or direct DPS, as well as shedding some extra light attributes and suggestion for revision.
If you have any constructive suggestions or comments, like I said before, they are welcome!

[Syzygian]

If I had a Reprisal proc for every PLD thread on this forum I'd be fucking invincible. The game would break and the debuff would start stacking and my raid would become unkillable.

Everyone knows that PLD has issues right now. There is literally zero to say that hasn't already been said and if someone actually does bring something genuinely new to the discussion I will be very impressed.

I keep wondering when these threads are going to start getting locked due to qualifying as duplicates of each other.

[Launched]

PLD does enough DPS in Sword Oath. You want to do lots of damage as PLD? Go offtank, or be good enough to MT in Sword Oath.

[Risvertasashi]

It has always struck me that a lot of the PLD CDs are so long compared to the other classes. For very powerful ones, like Sentinel, this makes sense. But then WAR also gets some very nice stuff on a 60s CD and... Why is Fell Cleave 500 potency when it's so easy to double or even triple? Spirits Within could definitely use the 500 potency buff, still wouldn't even compare.

Tempered Will and Divine Veil... I think their CDs seem pretty long for their effects. That said, I don't think shortening the stance CDs would really change anything because they're already instant, and the 2.5s GCD will still lock out other GCD-tied abilities until it's over.

Everyone knows that PLD has issues right now. There is literally zero to say that hasn't already been said and if someone actually does bring something genuinely new to the discussion I will be very impressed.

I keep wondering when these threads are going to start getting locked due to qualifying as duplicates of each other.

If you actually read his post you would see there's some constructive suggestions there. If you're tired of reading PLD threads, don't click on them.

The forums are here for discussion. And not just discussion that gets your personal seal of approval.

[Jpec07]

I'd be game.

If I had a Reprisal proc for every PLD thread on this forum I'd be fucking invincible. The game would break and the debuff would start stacking and my raid would become unkillable.

Everyone knows that PLD has issues right now. There is literally zero to say that hasn't already been said and if someone actually does bring something genuinely new to the discussion I will be very impressed.

I keep wondering when these threads are going to start getting locked due to qualifying as duplicates of each other.

Someone should probably make a PLD Adjustment Ideas Megathread that catalogs everyone's suggestions and provides an avenue for more without starting a new thread.

[Syzygian]

I'd be game.



Someone should probably make a PLD Adjustment Ideas Megathread that catalogs everyone's suggestions and provides an avenue for more without starting a new thread.

The problem with that is... It'd be another PLD thread.

If you actually read his post you would see there's some constructive suggestions there. If you're tired of reading PLD threads, don't click on them.

The forums are here for discussion. And not just discussion that gets your personal seal of approval.

The OP says he's been lurking and if you've been lurking you'd know that the front page of the tanking forum has been almost nothing but buff PLD threads or something similar for months now. And I've made my own contributions and thrown out my own ideas quite a bit in that timeframe. But now..... Its tiresome. Other discussions get scrolled right off the page. I click on these hoping that someone has something new and inspiring to offer but its all almost always the same ideas about the same abilities that someone else has said umpteen times in another thread either in the OP or comments.

They all come down to more or less the same things:

1. Let PLD block magic damage (Yoshi straight-up said "no" to this).
2. Make Clemency a clone or almost-a-clone of Equilibrium.
3. Shorten Divine Veil's recast or remove its proc requirement.
4. Let PLD use a two-handed weapon instead of a shield sometimes (wat?)
5. Make Cover physical/magical and/or increase its range.
6. Buff enmity.
7. Buff SwO damage (srsly?)
8. Buff ShO damage (okay.)
9. Make SwO/ShO Def/Del clones.
10. Give them a stack/MP mechanic (WAR/DRK clone)
11. Give RA a debuff.
12. Boost RoH's potency.
13. Screw it, just give them WAR OT/DRK MT dps.
14. Make Flash do damage (...)
etc. etc.

Basically no one can come up with any ideas to buff PLD without giving them WAR/DRK-level deeps or giving them clones of those tanks' abilities, and certainly no one can come up with an idea to make PLD viable in a way that would -differentiate- them from WAR/DRK without usurping those two tanks' roles (high OT/MT DPS respectively, mitigation debuffs, a slashing debuff and self-healing for WAR and extra mobility/aoe utility and magic mitigation for DRK). I tried in a last ditch effort to outline some thoughts I had in the Yoshi P's Stance on PLD thread by comparing the tanks to their healer counterparts and suggesting they take PLD in a similar direction to AST (more or less equal tanking/healing potential, lower DPS ceiling, extra-high and concrete/viable (not situational) raid utility).

Anyway, I just wish if people are actively reading the forums they wouldn't just parrot back the same things that have been said in the other 2-dozen threads sitting right in front of them on the top page. No disrespect intended.

[Kosmos992k]

Interesting suggestions, but I'm not sure that focusing on our dps is the route to go. I'm of the view that to improve Paladin, and make it lean more on it's identity there are three areas that need to be looked at. The first two boil down to the same thing, they are mitigation and shield use. I'd like to see more use made of the shield, and a bit more *active* mitigation using the shield specifically. I'm not convinced that we need, or should have a net gain in DPS, we are all about mitigation and blocking things with our shield, so why more dps?

The OP makes two intersting points;

• PLD mitigates more damage, meaning more cleric stance (DPS increase)
• PLD mitigates more damage, meaning healers are able to ensure survival of DPS (DPS increase)

These show that better mitigation can increase the overall DPS of the party, so PLD can increase the party dps, without altering it's own contribution. So, let's make a virtue out of active mitigation with our shield.

One thought I have had is some form of damage reflection or rebound. For instance a skill that allows a % incoming damage to be reflected back to the enemy as an enmity increase (the damage is reflected as increased enmity, not damage to the attacker). This would both mitigate damage and increase PLD ability to generate and gold aggro. It would work against multiple enemies. The CD could (for example) consume MP when used, last for 20s on a 60s cooldown, block and reflect 15% of incoming damage (physical and magical) and reflect it with an enmity multiplier of 2. I haven't done the math, the numbers are simply to illustrate the skill.

The other thought I've had, and mentioned before is to make Shield swipe an arc attack, a short-mid range frontal cone, with slightly reduced potency but slightly increased enmity multiplier. With the changes to Shield Swipe made recently, I'd add a shorter cooldown of 10s, and allow successful parries to trigger it as well as blocks. The reduction in potency should reduce the dps sufficiently to prevent this from being overpowered, and the slight boost to enmity prevents it from creating a problem in single target situations.

The third area is our cross class with CNJ, that pretty explicitly tells us that we should in fact be capable of some level of battlefield healing, not on par with a healer, but better than band-aids and rubbing dirt on it. So there I'd like to see our cure modified to use both MND and VIT to calculate the strength of the heal, and remove the battle field raise trait from Raise all together, giving BLM parity with SMN, and PLD the ability to actually use their Raise cross class skill.

I'd also like to see all 3 tanks increase the speed of TP regen based on their VIT, especially PLD since things like Shield Bash consume TP at a prodigious rate.

[fm_fenrir]

I'd also like to see all 3 tanks increase the speed of TP regen based on their VIT, especially PLD since things like Shield Bash consume TP at a prodigious rate.

Shield Bash costs as much as it does because it's the only stun that doesn't have a 20s CD (maybe, maybe less if parry procs are blessing you with low blow resets). Increasing TP regain for all three tanks is actually a massive buff to WAR/DRK (DRK most of all, since Blood Weapon is already net-TP positive with the current regain rate).

Also, making SWO a deliverance clone is a straight nerf to SWO. The DPS increase is something on the order of +13-15%, depending on the delay of your sword. There's nothing seriously wrong with PLD OT DPS, aside from absolutely garbage TP management. I wouldn't mind seeing RA get a bump to 360 potency, so it hits as hard as FT does--this would be functionally identical to FT rotation (710 potency, all told), and you could squeeze four of them in a FOF window (beating out a DRG's 3 combos in a B4B window).

@OP specifically: Spirits Within is a non-conditional level 45 skill. Making it 500 potency with no penalty other than "wait 30 seconds" gives a leveling PLD a 30 second mob eraser CD, and PLD is already the best tank until you get to endgame DPS check content. For comparison, you don't get FC until level 54, and none of the content you'd be using 3xFC in appears until you get to 60; deliverance in leveling dungeons is a gimmick most DF healers won't appreciate.

[Kosmos992k]

Shield Bash costs as much as it does because it's the only stun that doesn't have a 20s CD (maybe, maybe less if parry procs are blessing you with low blow resets). Increasing TP regain for all three tanks is actually a massive buff to WAR/DRK (DRK most of all, since Blood Weapon is already net-TP positive with the current regain rate).

OK, I can see that, I was just looking for some way for PLD to control their TP a bit better and a boost to the regen rate seemed like a quick fix, clearly it's not.

::Edit to remove unneeded paragraph::

[fm_fenrir]

I'm guessing this is aimed at another reply since I didn't mention Sword Oath.

Yeah, I meant that for the post above yours. Sorry for the formatting confusion.