The new raiding meta is making me want to quit.

[Miscreant]

snip

I don't get...how you can have such strong opinions about this when you haven't got a single level 60, no EX Primal kills and no experience in Coil, it practically has nothing to do with you.

Let me ask a noob question: Is it really impossible to clear savage without healers' dps? Has any group actually tried it recently? I know that it is stupid to do something the hard way, when there is the easier option, but I would be really interested if it's really impossible.

After a group gets their 210 weapons sure, A3 has been seven manned.

[G-Hand]

I think some people are missing the point.

The point is that in Alexander Floor 4 Savage healer DPS is a necessary. That is a fact. I don't think that anyone (who has any validity) will argue that.
I don't go into PF thinking that the healers there pull off the DPS i see in my raid group, but I don't expect them to sit there and suck their thumbs when everyone is topped off. I expect them to DPS where they are comfortable (this obviously depends on multiple factors including, the fight, how new they are, how the other healer and party members are doing).

ROTFLMAO! So a revision of a timeline is somehow an indicator that Yoshi-P was untruthful about how content is balanced? Good lord, thats some twisted logic you have there.

I dont think they were trying to say that Yoshi-P was lying. More that he did not fully realize how difficult the content would be for the average raider. Its more of a wake up call. They wanted to make the fights harder, but not this hard its not so much that a revision is being untruthful, but more that the end result was not their original intentions.

[Elim]

I enjoy DPSing on my healer because if I didn't DPS I'd be bored out of my mind. Healing is by far the easiest job in the game.

I wouldn't mind if they actually made healing challenging at some point. So you didn't have time to DPS. I doubt that's ever going to happen though.

[NaySilver]

Even in full ilvl 209, You NEED healer dps in a4s. That fight was tuned WITH healer dps being a requirement. You obviously have had absolutely no a4s experience since you gobble up that BS that there are no fights in this game that require healers to dps.

These are Yoshida's words: "This is also one of the reasons we decided to implement both a normal and savage version of Alexander. Once again, healer DPS was not included in the development team's calculation as it was for other jobs, so you should just think of healer DPS as a last way to get your overall party's DPS up to where it needs to be".

He may have no experience, still you are wrong, because no, that fight wasn't tuned with healer dps being a requirement. This is the only fact, experience or not.

[CBellz]

To all tanks and healers:

Once you've fulfilled your basic roles of keeping hate/surviving/keeping everyone alive, why would you not find other ways to contribute as much as you can to a party?

The current meta is nothing particularly new. In the binding coil DPS was what separated the good tanks and healers from the great ones. The difference is now is just that being "good" was enough to clear the binding coil, but isn't quite enough to clear savage. You shouldn't be criticizing the meta itself. Instead, you should criticize the degree of optimization this current raid tier requires

[Kosmos992k]

How exactly did their testers beat the fight? My guess is with healer dps -______________-

There you go. There is your lie. Unless SE staffs game testers better than the world 1st group (and from SCOB savage, we know they don't), the test team would have used healer dps to down a4s.

Your 'guess' makes it a lie?

This is pointless, I don't care one jot about Alex Savage, I've never suggested otherwise, but that isn't what this topic is about, it's a side issue that deflects the discussion. This topic is about the current meta that places additional expectation and burden on healers and tanks. What the raiding community feels is needed for that content has no relevance to other content, so why is it seemingly an expectation on others outside of raiding now?

To all tanks and healers:

Once you've fulfilled your basic roles of keeping hate/surviving/keeping everyone alive, why would you not find other ways to contribute as much as you can to a party?

The current meta is nothing particularly new. In the binding coil DPS was what separated the good tanks and healers from the great ones. The difference is now is just that being "good" was enough to clear the binding coil, but isn't quite enough to clear savage. You shouldn't be criticizing the meta itself. Instead, you should criticize the degree of optimization this current raid tier requires

No, this isn't about what happens in end-game, it's about that meta being exported to other content. Your question is easy to answer, most decent healers and tanks will do a bit more when they can, but it's not an expectation anyone needs to make a mandatory requirement. Once you start demanding that type of performance from healers and tanks in non-raid content, you are placing an additional burden on them, that of doing sufficient damage, adding that load to healers and tanks relieves DPS players of their responsibilities, why is that OK?

[Dante_V]

I actually like the way it is now. Outside of savage it is in no way required what so ever so if you aren't doing savage it should really be a non issue. But I support anything this game does to push players to better themselves and their teams.

[zosia]

These are Yoshida's words: "This is also one of the reasons we decided to implement both a normal and savage version of Alexander. Once again, healer DPS was not included in the development team's calculation as it was for other jobs, so you should just think of healer DPS as a last way to get your overall party's DPS up to where it needs to be".He may have no experience, still you are wrong, because no, that fight wasn't tuned with healer dps being a requirement. This is the only fact, experience or not.

So, I have plenty of clear vids showing healer dps being required to clear a4s. I have plenty of evidence to support my claim. Show me the video where a team gets their 1st clear without any healer dps?

Unless SE released A4S without clearing it with play testers, I am curious as to how they could have even come up with a timeline. They cleared the fight. The vast amount of a4s clear videos back up the notion that you NEED healer dps to clear the fight. So, either the dev team released a fight they did not clear themselves or they tuned it with healer dps.

So, which seems more likely? They released the end boss of a tier without fully testing it or they tested the fight while using healer dps. The latter seems much more likely.

you should just think of healer DPS as a last way to get your overall party's DPS up to where it needs to be

You clearly don't understand a4s. This is not a case of "gitgud". Teams that are going to get an a4s clear before nerfs are already performing at a 90-99% maximum level. There is no gear progression, there is little or no performance gains that can be dragged out of your players. You need your SCH to dps in a4s or you don't get a clear. It's just that simple. Their test team either completed testing with the SCH dpsing or they did not complete the fight under conditions we see on live servers.

Your 'guess' makes it a lie?

This is pointless, I don't care one jot about Alex Savage, I've never suggested otherwise, but that isn't what this topic is about, it's a side issue that deflects the discussion. This topic is about the current meta that places additional expectation and burden on healers and tanks. What the raiding community feels is needed for that content has no relevance to other content, so why is it seemingly an expectation on others outside of raiding now?

It's a very well educated guess based on my own experiences in a4s and the countless a4s videos you can find on youtube. Find me one 1st clear video where a team uses zero healing dps to get the clear. Good luck finding one =p

So, can I roll into a dungeon and cast a fire one every five seconds or so? Because that's what some healers do, especially when they have a good tank. If people have a problem being called bad players because they sit around with their thumbs up their butt, that's on them. If you don't want to be labeled as bad, then don't waste several global cooldowns. It's very very very simple!

If a healer has a bad tank, it's a different story. That healer needs to focus just on healing or there will be wipes. If the healer has a good tank, it's not unreasonable to expect them to throw out some dots or cast a stone III.

[Archaell]

After a group gets their 210 weapons sure, A3 has been seven manned.

That's a little bit too late. I would like to know if the savage can be finished with i200 weapons and eso/savage gear. Basically if there are possible conditions to make Yoshida's statement about healers' dps not being required true.

If the fights are designed to not require healer dps, while in reality they do require it, where is the lost dps? Then I would have to wonder if they designed the fights with BRD and MCH being screwed in terms of dps in mind. Were the encounters designed around 4dps, 4 real dps, then maybe that could be the reason why now healers have to dps.

[Kallera]

You don't suppose the Internal SE team that beat a4s did it with i210, including weapons instead of lower, maybe that's where they messed up?