The new raiding meta is making me want to quit.

[Crysten]

It's weird to me on this forum how many people seem to believe that all DPS must be bad and that's why tanks and healers have to DPS. It's like some tanks and healers are so salty that DPS is a big thing so they take to insulting the DPS because they don't want to have to do it.

Yes, there are bad DPS out there. There are also a lot of bad tanks. And bad healers. The bad players in each type didn't cause the current meta with Alex Savage. SE did.

Note how my original comment made mention to non-raid content specifically, not Savage. Savage was always intended for all players to be actively DPSing, however that mentality has extended to outside of raid environments because there is very, very little content outside of Savage that is a major healing/tank check - mainly because hey ho, people cried that content was too hard. So what else is there for tanks and healers to do besides try to push their DPS numbers?

Yes, there are bad players on every job out there, but the jump to 60 has made the skill gap wider, so poor DPS are a lot more commonplace. Tanks and healers aren't salty that we don't want to DPS, much the opposite. Tanks and healers are salty that we're not only healing and tanking, but we're having to pick up the slack for those whose literal one job is to damage the mob.

We're currently playing endgame where tanks and healers are beating DPS at their primary role with alarming regularity - this shouldn't be happening.

[Eidolon]

Get in touch with me on Lodestone through Blog or something. I would love to arrange DF fight together if possible.

I agree with that. Some people are insufferable to play with especially when after 2 hours they are still messing up to the same mechanics or regressing. Probably tired or just in over their head.

That's why I play with a premade non PF group if I want to clear something without frustration. Always have fun with those. Or learning parties. Have fun with learning parties because my expectation is not to clear.

No expectations = No disappointment right?

earnestly I'm trying to figure it out but I can't XD I also don't think we can do a Duty Finder until they put Thordan-EX on the Duty Finder (It's full-party req'd atm)

[RadiantRay]

I don't get what's the problem with Healers dpsing in this game. Usually in other mmos once someone is topped off I do other things such as debuffing the boss, buffing my party members, restoring MP or Stamina (if it's in the game). In this game the healers have none of that (or very very little of it with long cds). But what we do have is very powerful dmg. Damage that isn't so weak that it takes us 5 mins to kill a monster compared to a dps who only spends 2 seconds to kill. For this reason whenever my party isn't in need of healing, which is pretty much all the the time...this game is a joke for healers, I pop cleric stance and dps. Our damage is so powerful and we can't really support the group any other way so why not? Seriously why not?

If we did have support abilities to do outside of just healing what difference would it make compared to now? You're just supporting in a different way.

[Ladon]

What if a raid boss fight depended not only on a dps check, but also on the tank both absorbing damage and holding attention, while all the DPS can flank/rear attack to maximize damage, and with sufficient raid wide and tank damage/status attacks to keep healers busy?

Oh, hang on, theY have done that, but players are so hooked on overgearing and overpowering content that they'd rather push high DPS, push phases and ignore mechanics. If there was a raid where the tanks and healers *had* to maximize their tanking and healing to prevent a wipe, I wonder how long it would take for people to complaign about the difficulty. I think many players, especially at end-game, prefer the one dimensional meta that is current.

Overgearing isn't the players problem, it's a problem with itemization since 2.0 has been around.

When you have most players stomping around in content in gear 50 ilevels above the requirement because the developers can't seem to figure out the concept of progression then I'm not really sure what you are expecting here. When I can complete dungeons without ever putting up Grit and the healers don't even notice then that is a problem with the game, not the players.

[Iromi]

I agree OP, I think some damage here and there is okay..but it does feel like every job is a DPS. I play healer to heal...not to kill things. They need to fix this.

[Talianore]

You realize that most of these things were present in Coil and Alex already and people just worked around them right?

If people can kill a boss by ignoring mechanics, then the boss is undertuned and should be readjusted. Maybe that's the underlying problem to the raids in this game - that the bosses need to do more damage, have more health, just be more difficult overall. It really should not be possible to rush down a boss before you severely outgear it.

[Khalithar]

If people can kill a boss by ignoring mechanics, then the boss is undertuned and should be readjusted.

This, if you can beat a boss by ignoring and circumventing intended mechanics then the boss should be adjusted so that isn't possible. According to Archulak's post, if all those things could be circumvented, then SE should have adjusted the fights so that isn't possible as far as I'm concerned. I can appreciate a boss fight having multiple solutions other than the one intended way the devs intended, but being able to circumvent mechanics entirely? I strongly disagree with that premise.

Edit:

You realize that most of these things were present in Coil and Alex already and people just worked around them right?

You realize that if a fight is programmed correctly, that "working around mechanics" should not be possible right?

[axemtitanium]

OP tl;dr "I miss when tanks and healers who are rubbish could still complete hardcore content."

[Brian_]

The reason why aggro generation in this game is easy is to keep the skill floor for effective tanking low. Why? So your DF groups won't be even worse than they already are. People already struggle to keep aggro. You think making it harder to keep aggro will help this game?

So, the structure of tanking is as such -- if all you want to do is hold aggro and stay alive, the job is incredibly easy to play. I have not played an MMO with more casual friendly tanking. You slap on a bunch of VIT gear, push 1 button to generate massive amounts of AoE enmity, rotate through 1 combo for single target enmity, and you're a sufficient tank for maybe 95% of the game's content.

I see a lot of people say "well tanking should be about tanking." Okay. So, how do you go about doing that while maintaining the degree of difficulty in tanking across all levels? For as long as people have complained, nobody has ever provided an even remotely plausible solution to that problem.

Increase the amount of damage to absurd amounts so that tanks can no longer go DPS stance and need to milk every millisecond out of the CDs just to stay alive? Doesn't change anything. People will still be trying to pump out as much DPS as possible while handling the incoming damage and a proper dCD rotation.

Remove tank damage entirely and replace it with enmity? How does a tank kill anything in solo play? How do you scale enmity so that it's challenging at the highest level but still easy at the casual level? If a geared raid tank needs to maximize their play to hold enmity over their i210 DPS, what is going to happen when said i210 DPS is paired with a newbie tank that doesn't know how to maximize their play?

Criticism without a solution is criticism without substance.

[Wizhard]

OP tl;dr "I miss when tanks and healers who are rubbish could still complete hardcore content."

I've been farming A4S for a while now(switched from my pld to war just for it, since my co-tank is drk). I would welcome the reduction of focus on tank and healers dps though. Or at the very least make turtle tank an option, not a downgrade. I keep playing as a glorified dps now but i do not like it. Do not assume that everyone who does not like to dps are bad at the game.