3.1 MSQ Reaction [SPOILERS]

[Tenkuu]

The bio of the heavensward can be found here.
They are short, but quite interesting.
Sorry to butt in like this, but since nobody answered so far... o.o

No problem! Anyone can jump in if they have answers or just something to add.

The part where it's implied he might have been tempered in bold.

Thanks! The website has honestly had some loading issues for me, so I haven't gone on it much.

I think this is related to him seeing how far gone and insane his son is now, and Aymeric's honesty in wanting to end this battle. Our interaction with Hraelsvelgrs brood in Annex Trine might have helped, too, but since we also killed an awful lot of dragons at the same time I'm not quite sure about this myself.

Well, I've said so before, but I can still understand and sympathize with Nidhogg much more than with the Ishgardians. They just really have not impressed me, at all, except for those like Aymeric, Haurchefant and Edmont. There's a whole culture of hypocrisy and learned helplessness that is rather grating to me in that country.

Well, I guess you have a point. He's still my favorite villainous character so far.
The Rouge quests are great! Loved all of them, especially the one with V'kebbe and a certain sandwitch

Compared with some other classes' really tedious last few quests, Rogue really had some interesting ones even when they were a bit difficult.

In 1.0, Gaius actually opposed Naels Project Meteor and even helped the players trying to prevent the plan to go through by giving them information. One of the reasons I said he generally tries to minimize (civilian) casualties; though I have to admit that having being his command over the Eorzean conquest taken away in favour of Nael probably played a part in it, too.

Yeah but see, Gaius wants to minimize casualties pretty much only because he wants non-Garleans to rule over, and he essentially says as much in 1.0. So I rather have trouble seeing anything he does as being out of the goodness of his heart.

Yeah, it's quite frustrating how little we know about the Ascians so far. Yoshi promissed to lift some of their secrets in Heavensward, but...
But, yeah, this particular part was brought up in... 2.1, I think? Anyway, it's one of foundations of the 'multiple worlds' theory going around.

Well, specifics about Lahabrea and Elidibus have never been provided, and whether or not they keep Lahabrea dead, it would still be nice to know those things.

[Yuyuka3]

Thanks! The website has honestly had some loading issues for me, so I haven't gone on it much.

You are welcome

Well, I've said so before, but I can still understand and sympathize with Nidhogg much more than with the Ishgardians. They just really have not impressed me, at all, except for those like Aymeric, Haurchefant and Edmont. There's a whole culture of hypocrisy and learned helplessness that is rather grating to me in that country.

I can't, because he's essentially torturing generation after generation of people who where fed lies from infancy and living under a government that brutally kills anyone who digresses from their 'true belief'. (Seeing this typed out, it sounds awfully familiar...). Then again, I don't really like many of the Ishardians, either, since many we meet are utter jerks. Still, I feel with the lower classes and hope Aymeric will be able to acutally improve their lifes.

Compared with some other classes' really tedious last few quests, Rogue really had some interesting ones even when they were a bit difficult.

Heh, absolutely.

Yeah but see, Gaius wants to minimize casualties pretty much only because he wants non-Garleans to rule over, and he essentially says as much in 1.0. So I rather have trouble seeing anything he does as being out of the goodness of his heart.

True. Still puts him above his countrymen in my eyes, especially genocidal maniacs like Nael. Though I have to admit I strangely felt with Nael at the end of T9 as well...

Well, specifics about Lahabrea and Elidibus have never been provided, and whether or not they keep Lahabrea dead, it would still be nice to know those things.

Absolutely!

[Tenkuu]

I can't, because he's essentially torturing generation after generation of people who where fed lies from infancy and living under a government that brutally kills anyone who digresses from their 'true belief'. (Seeing this typed out, it sounds awfully familiar...). Then again, I don't really like many of the Ishardians, either, since many we meet are utter jerks. Still, I feel with the lower classes and hope Aymeric will be able to acutally improve their lifes.

If you think about it from the dragons' perspective though, just about every Ishgardian is descended from those knights and therefore have Ratatoskr's blood in them, therefore their very existence is a reminder of that betrayal. When you look at it that way, Nidhogg's inability to get over it is much more understandable.

My personal preference at this given moment would be that our involvement just completely tears that nation apart. Cities at landbridges between realms usually have a long history of conflict. Driving out the core Imperial structure would create a power vacuum into which would be drawn Garlean loyalists, Kingdom loyalists, reformists, Fists of Rhalgr, upstarts... I'd love it to be a city like Whitegate - full of interesting characters and factions and perpetually in conflict for the rest of the game.

We've seen as much Garlean military as we have Allagan remnants, though, so unless we're in for more than cermet and magitek and bleak black fortresses, I don't really care to see the homeland, lol. The throne room didn't look much different than a castrum. Unless we forge some truce and have an excuse to see a unique culture going back farther than their military industrial revolution, I'd rather they just collapsed off screen like the previous Emperor and let us go about our business somewhere like Thavnair or Othard or, hells, even the New World.

Likely any involvement with Ala Mhigo *will* cause conflict because it's pretty much under Garlean rule, but like you, that is exactly what I want to see out of that place. I'm also not interested in seeing more Garlean-style fortresses and other dark and imposing buildings, and I would like for Ala Mhigo to have a culture if it should be visited. However, as I mentioned before, I'm more interested in us going to the Sharlayan country. Don't know whether it would be in the cards, but it seems inevitable to eventually address their issues of non-interference.

It clearly is, but to play Devil's Advocate...

... while Gaius had sympathetic motives on the surface, deep down he was little more than an ambitious, power-hungry conquerer like the rest of the Garleans. He had standards, and a point that Eorzeans likely turn to gods because they're not strong enough to accept hardship, but ultimately the reason he wanted to conquer Eorzea was to prove that he could do so. (It's also why he opposed Project Meteor, as using a cataclysmic weapon of mass destruction to lay waste to the land would leave nothing worth conquering.)

Yup, that's exactly what I've been saying: Gaius is ultimately just another Garlean with motives that don't much differ from his comrades'. He doesn't conquer for the good of others, but it's what he pretends to justify his actions. He makes several good points about Eorzea and its Primals but goes about dealing with them the wrong way.

[Yuyuka3]

If you think about it from the dragons' perspective though, just about every Ishgardian is descended from those knights and therefore have Ratatoskr's blood in them, therefore their very existence is a reminder of that betrayal. When you look at it that way, Nidhogg's inability to get over it is much more understandable.

Yes, maybe. But if we all thought like this, we probably would have died out centuries ago, because peaceful coexistence couldn't be possible. I don't want to drag real live politics in here, but imagine what would have happened with this mindset after WWII...


And even then, torturing the greatgrandson/daughter of someone who killed your sister won't bring her back alive, it won't help anyone and will only create more hate and bloodshed in the long run, on both sides. It is meaningless. But that's exactly what happened here; Nidhogg condemned not only Ishgard, but his own children, too. And that's something I got no understanding for.

Likely any involvement with Ala Mhigo *will* cause conflict because it's pretty much under Garlean rule, but like you, that is exactly what I want to see out of that place. I'm also not interested in seeing more Garlean-style fortresses and other dark and imposing buildings, and I would like for Ala Mhigo to have a culture if it should be visited. However, as I mentioned before, I'm more interested in us going to the Sharlayan country. Don't know whether it would be in the cards, but it seems inevitable to eventually address their issues of non-interference.

I'm absolutely not interested in Ala Mhigo... everything I've seen from Ala Mhigans, with some exceptions like Raubahn and Wilred, was very negative. I don't want to help them. However, in the long run, it will be necessary to liberate the place, and yes, there will be conflict at this time. Besides, I think Yoshida mentioned they would bring the Garleans back within this patch cycle, so it is possible we will be heading there soon. Even though I would like to see other places much more as well. However, I got the feeling I would punch in one face or the other over at Sharlayan, so not sure if that's the best place to be for me

[ExKage]

Yes, maybe. But if we all thought like this, we probably would have died out centuries ago, because peaceful coexistence couldn't be possible. I don't want to drag real live politics in here, but imagine what would have happened with this mindset after WWII...

Imagine that you have lived for over 100,000 years. 100 years of that is just a tiny tiny fraction. In fact, it's pretty hard for us to imagine because we won't even live close to that long. They live their lives much differently than we do. Their concept of time is very different. Thousands of years and Tiamat still has to punish herself.

And it's not like Nidhogg's thoughts are shared totally by Midgardsomr and his other children. But they do understand the hate and anger. Some of them would like to get past that, yes. Nidhogg is one hateful dragon but I can't completely blame him just as I can't completely blame the current generation of innocent Ishgardians.

[Tenkuu]

Imagine that you have lived for over 100,000 years. 100 years of that is just a tiny tiny fraction. In fact, it's pretty hard for us to imagine because we won't even live close to that long. They live their lives much differently than we do. Their concept of time is very different. Thousands of years and Tiamat still has to punish herself.

Yup, that's pretty much exactly how I feel. I've seen people argue that time passing differently for dragons isn't an excuse, but of course it's a valid reason because it means they see their lives in a completely different way than humans do.

And it's not like Nidhogg's thoughts are shared totally by Midgardsomr and his other children. But they do understand the hate and anger. Some of them would like to get past that, yes. Nidhogg is one hateful dragon but I can't completely blame him just as I can't completely blame the current generation of innocent Ishgardians.

I don't agree that all Ishgardians should die, but I still sympathize a lot more with Nidhogg than I do with them. The Ishgardians have always struck me as a lazy bunch who never tried to solve the situation on their own, even though they have a ton of dragoons at their disposal. Say what you will about Nidhogg being out of reach, but it's a fact that we're not only people who could have come up with a way to deal with that.

[Tenkuu]

And even then, torturing the greatgrandson/daughter of someone who killed your sister won't bring her back alive, it won't help anyone and will only create more hate and bloodshed in the long run, on both sides. It is meaningless. But that's exactly what happened here; Nidhogg condemned not only Ishgard, but his own children, too. And that's something I got no understanding for.

Doesn't matter that it won't bring them back to life, what matters is the hurt and remaining bitter feelings that something like that betrayal caused, the feeling that you've been wronged. Also, if a person killed another person's sister and ate their remains, the children of that person wouldn't have the sister's blood in them, so the two situations can hardly be compared. Tbh, it's quite cunning of Nidhogg to use something that they stole from a dragon against them.

I'm absolutely not interested in Ala Mhigo... everything I've seen from Ala Mhigans, with some exceptions like Raubahn and Wilred, was very negative. I don't want to help them. However, in the long run, it will be necessary to liberate the place, and yes, there will be conflict at this time. Besides, I think Yoshida mentioned they would bring the Garleans back within this patch cycle, so it is possible we will be heading there soon. Even though I would like to see other places much more as well. However, I got the feeling I would punch in one face or the other over at Sharlayan, so not sure if that's the best place to be for me

I can see some good in the Ala Mhigans. As to the Sharlayans, I'm really interested in seeing exactly how they'd explain away their policy of non-interference. I would probably want to punch a few people too, especially given the implication that it's not just Louisoix but all of the members of the former Circle of Knowing who are looked badly upon by them. However, I get the feeling that ultimately, advanced technology and knowledge or not, the Sharlayans will be forced into the same conflict as the rest of the world.

[Zohar_Lahar]

I can see some good in the Ala Mhigans. As to the Sharlayans, I'm really interested in seeing exactly how they'd explain away their policy of non-interference. I would probably want to punch a few people too, especially given the implication that it's not just Louisoix but all of the members of the former Circle of Knowing who are looked badly upon by them. However, I get the feeling that ultimately, advanced technology and knowledge or not, the Sharlayans will be forced into the same conflict as the rest of the world.

The Astrologian quests indicated the policy of non-interference was because of the Bibliothec faction, under the time mage Sylvestre and probably others like [whatshisname] Leveilleur (Louisoix's son). Leveva implied Sharlayan used to be more actively involved in international politics centuries ago than they are now.

[Tenkuu]

The Astrologian quests indicated the policy of non-interference was because of the Bibliothec faction, under the time mage Sylvestre and probably others like [whatshisname] Leveilleur (Louisoix's son). Leveva implied Sharlayan used to be more actively involved in international politics centuries ago than they are now.

The Astrologian quests would not have been the first to reveal that, actually; Alphinaud and Alisaie's Tales from the Calamity revealed that long ago. But you have to think that there's more to it than meets the eye, cauz obviously they would know that simply observing conflict will do nothing to solve it.

[Cilia]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with talking about two of the greatest characters this game has. There's no need to put an end to anything, people will talk about what they want, and move on when they're longer interested by the topic. Forcing the issue won't accomplish anything.

I agree that there's nothing wrong with discussing characters, but Gaius had nothing to do with 3.1 (hell, he's been dead since the end of 2.0) and Minfilia's been figuratively beat to death. There's already a (pretty popular) topic for that; why do we need to drag it over here?