Suggestion - Paladin Identity and new stance?

[Bravely_Default]

Keep in mind that the more you pigeonhole a role with certain aspects, the bigger the point of failure (POF). Having one POF is never a good thing.

-DPS checks rely on everybody but the 4 DPS are your main POF.

-Heal checks like that seen in AS1 rely on everybody (AOEs,positioning) as well, but the POFs are primarily the healers and tanks (managing damage mitigation CDs, either limited self sustain or support options for the party).

-Tank checks rely on tanks properly maintaining cooldowns in preparation for massive hits along with being topped off by a healer before hand.

-With the point I am making death is a mechanic that is in play for every fight and
has 1 point of failure if you are not running a summoner.

[Bravely_Default]

Obviously the healers job to provide big heals with a side of DPS and that should remain such, but death is something that other roles that lean to support side should at least be able to assist with. I honestly think that bards and machinists (phoenix down packed bullet anyone?), are prime examples of classes that lean support side that should get battle revives as well.

[Februs]

Can I put one little extra tid bit out there. Everyone is talking ONLY about end game raid utility I feel. But let's not forget that we can find uses in the lvl sync'd dungeons below lvl 50 as well. Cure stays with us as a cross class skill; Clemency does not. Not saying end game dungeons and raids aren't important, but let's also not forget how crippled a low lvl PLD that's lvl sync'd is in comparison to their counterpart tanks.

This is actually one of the considerations which made me so upset when they changed Shield swipe the second time, taking off the GCD.

Post 3.0 changes (addition of enmity bonus to Shield swipe), Bulwark gained MASSIVE utility, even in lvl 50 dungeons and under. Instead of just popping it on CD, you could plan to use it for big pulls. Shield lob > Flash > CoS > rotate RoH combo with Shield Swipe between every primary move, alternating each Enmity Gen move onto a separate target. This created an instant increase in aggro and dmg output on mob pulls while maintaining dmg mitigation by rotating RoH and pacification. You barely even needed Flash, and Tp management (on mobs only, mind you) was not an issue.

Post 3.1 changes (Shield Swipe taken off of the GCD) Pld's get a MINUSCULE dps increase on bosses, but take a huge dps loss on mob tanking on top of reduced aggro and mitigation (less pacification). Tp is suddenly a HUGE issue, even with regular mob pulls, because there are no interruptions to your primary rotation besides Flash. Bulwark and Shelltron have been had their utility cut in half (again), and are basically used on CD now... It's a mess.

The gains Pld's get in boss fights by taking Shield Swipe off of the GCD don't even come close to the harm it does to mob enmity/dmg/mitigation and Tp management, especially in sub 50 dungeons.

[Malicewolf]

This is actually one of the considerations which made me so upset when they changed Shield swipe the second time, taking off the GCD.

Post 3.0 changes (addition of enmity bonus to Shield swipe), Bulwark gained MASSIVE utility, even in lvl 50 dungeons and under. Instead of just popping it on CD, you could plan to use it for big pulls. Shield lob > Flash > CoS > rotate RoH combo with Shield Swipe between every primary move, alternating each Enmity Gen move onto a separate target. This created an instant increase in aggro and dmg output on mob pulls while maintaining dmg mitigation by rotating RoH and pacification. You barely even needed Flash, and Tp management (on mobs only, mind you) was not an issue.

Post 3.1 changes (Shield Swipe taken off of the GCD) Pld's get a MINUSCULE dps increase on bosses, but take a huge dps loss on mob tanking on top of reduced aggro and mitigation (less pacification). Tp is suddenly a HUGE issue, even with regular mob pulls, because there are no interruptions to your primary rotation besides Flash. Bulwark and Shelltron have been had their utility cut in half (again), and are basically used on CD now... It's a mess.

The gains Pld's get in boss fights by taking Shield Swipe off of the GCD don't even come close to the harm it does to mob enmity/dmg/mitigation and Tp management, especially in sub 50 dungeons.

Yea, I was upset with that as well. I used to bulwark mobs all the time and like you said, use it inbetween other combos. 15 seconds isn't that bad though. But I REALLY hate it when I can only use bulwark to set it off once. It's still decent mitigation at least. Just a pain as I'm waiting for a normal block to occur just to use it. Nothing's more infuriating that see's I have a bunch of blocks that I can't take advantage of due to cooldown, but the second it's done, I get nothing for a bit. BUT, it's not the end of the world for me. Just required me to change up my tactics a bit.

[Februs]

Yes, it can be useful, but most of the time, you can skip any cast of Clemency without having any effect on the outcome. That's why I say it's not relevant

That's fair, but for me this is what makes it relevant.To me, Pld's uniqueness (or part of it's identity, if you like) is the way in which a Pld can strengthen it's fellow party members. Most of the time, that strengthening comes in the form of defending them (which is why Divine Veil was such a fantastic addition to the Pld skill set), but it is also found in the way in which a Pld can essentially "lighten the load" for the other party members. In that regard, Clemency is outstanding, because no matter how you use it as long as the cast goes off, you are lightening the load off of the healers. Any time a healer has to divide their attention between multiple wounded part members, but finds that the Pld has used clemency to help out (even if the cast was too slow and all they did was self heal a bit), that healer can breathe a little easier. It's not meant to be a saving grace or secret weapon, it's meant to be a tool that pld's can use to make the entire fight go a little smoother. In that regard, clemency could not be more relevant.

You could still deactivate your oath to retain a "basic" DPS output. Of course, you'd be doing less that nowadays, but it wouldn't be your goal. Remember, I imagined the healing stance to allow you to skip one healer to bring an additional DPS. Because what is important for DPS check is the overall DPS. If the party can output the same DPS, it's not important that PLD is really low personally.

Not quite, and that's not the end of the problem. A Str reduction effects all physical output, that includes your auto attack. To maintain baseline Dps would mean literally never using your healer stance... so why have it?

Skipping out on an extra healer with the Pld picking up the slack doesn't really make sense either. I mean, bringing an extra dps definitely addresses the dps problem, but ... why bring the Pld then? If Pld plans on off tanking in healer stance for most of the fight to help the healer and keep up with raid dmg, wouldn't it make more sense just to bring another healer and do away with the off tank entirely? Whm paper tanking isn't exactly a new concept as it is, and has been done before (it was actually required, albeit briefly, by T9's triple golum mechanics).

Bringing the Pld would make sense for fights that require 2 tanks (say, A1, for example), but then the Pld could not be using their "healer stance." If they try to tank in their healer stance, their DPS goes down by default because mind does nothing for a tank's dmg output, and that's not even the worst part of the problem. The real problem is enmity generation.

Pld's have the lowest enmity gen combo out of all 3 tanks (originally slated as such because of the traditional 1-2-3 RoH rotation that had no interruptions. They didn't really need the same multiplier as War's, since they had no variety in attacks). This has actually been proven using... erm... mystical methods.... and the actual numbers have been outed in a few forum threads before. Reducing a Pld's Str by swapping it's value with Mnd in a healing oath would reduce a Pld's enmity even further. Using the "healing oath" while on Main Tank (especially in cutting edge raids where the Dps are likely to have high spec gear) would be extremely risky. The Pld would have to focus their RoH combo even more just to maintain threat. This means less goring blades (less dmg output), less RA (less dmg output), and less helping (even if you were healing... that's still less dmg output, because you'd be interrupting your dmg rotation for each spell you cast) because each spell cast would risk losing enmity.

Det doesn't scale with STR, it scales with everything. So, Det would apply to our healing potency, which is the exact focus off the healing stance.

Det actually does not apply to healing output. It only helps input. The definition is: "increases the amount of damage dealt by all attacks including auto attacks, weaponskills and spells. It also increases the amount of HP recovered by spells." This means that the more Det you have, the more Hp a healer can recover to you by healing you, but it literally does nothing for your own healing potency with the exception of specific Pld abilities that are directly tuned to Str for this exact reason (Flash and Clemency). Meaning that swapping Str with Mind would effectively cut off your Determination bonuses from Str accessories. They wouldn't help with dmg output, and they wouldn't help with healing output. It would become a wasted secondary stat.

[Februs]

Just required me to change up my tactics a bit.

It's definitely still workable... but the problem for me is that it is wildly inefficient compared to the 3.0 way. Mob aggro and Pld dmg on mobs has taken a massive head dive thanks to this, and Tp consumption is worse now than it ever was. The only solution is to spam more Flash, which reduces your dmg output even further. You can no longer plan your use of Bulwark (Because you only get one Shield swipe out of it anyway), and in boss fights the 15 second cooldown actually works against shelltron, because they don't line up and shelltron is longer.

It also killed the varied playstyle that Pld's had the brief opportunity to experiment with. Using Bulwark+shield swipe, you could hold aggro on mobs even if you were rotating a different combo than RoH. After your initial pull and grab rotation, you could start using goring blade while holding enmity using shield swipe. It was still better to use RoH (for Dmg mitigation purposes) most of the time, but if the healer could handle the extra output you had the option of helping the Dps instead... you can't really do that anymore unless you're overgeared. Taking out the frequency of Shield swipe pretty well forces the Pld to use RoH and Flash only (like the old days), and even if you are overgeared and can work a full dmg rotation (which I still admittedly do often) you run the risk of redlining your Tp if the Dps can't keep up. Then you're back to Flash... RoH.... Flash... RoH....Zzz...

About the only good thing about this was that it increased Pld Dps against bosses... who use physical attacks... and only by a tiny, unnoticeable amount... In all seriousness, I am truly fine working with it the way it is, but that doesn't mean that I'm not a little baffled that SE would make changes to our class which actually set it backwards compared to the way it was. It's like they thought we were OP like War's or something...

[Reynhart]

Not quite, and that's not the end of the problem. A Str reduction effects all physical output, that includes your auto attack. To maintain baseline Dps would mean literally never using your healer stance... so why have it?

No, not never. Like any competent healer know when he can DPS and when he can heal, a competent PLD would have to know when to use its healing stance.

I mean, bringing an extra dps definitely addresses the dps problem, but ... why bring the Pld then?

The problem is that, now, there's not reason to bring a PLD. With that idea, if you have a PLD in your roster, you can build an efficient setup (DPS wise) with it. And a PLD is far more sturdy than a healer, so less likely to die. And if he could raise in battle, it could also help greatly.

If they try to tank in their healer stance

Short answer, they couldn't.

Det actually does not apply to healing output. It only helps input. The definition is: "increases the amount of damage dealt by all attacks including auto attacks, weaponskills and spells. It also increases the amount of HP recovered by spells."

Yes, recovered, not received. Your healing spells always "recover" HP.

This is actually one of the considerations which made me so upset when they changed Shield swipe the second time, taking off the GCD.

I'm still convinced that Shield Swipe should have been changed into War Drum...with a decrease in potency.

[winsock]

First off, tbh, i kinda half expected ya to just ignore it, so i appreciate that you took the time to elaborate and i think i have a better understanding of where you're coming from.

You keep saying brez will break the game if a PLD gets it because they are not a healer class.

Just a clarification: I do feel that way about improving PLD heals in general. With brez, its not so much "PLD is not a healer", its more "PLD is a tank". Brez becomes more valuable the harder things take a turn for worst, and tanks can take extremely hard turns, so hard sometimes, that they can break 'normal progression'.

To me, having brez on only the squishiest of classes makes sense because for party-wide mechanics, your group only survives if the squishiest also survive. BLM I think would be fine to have brez from a balance standpoint IMO, but only if umbral ice wasnt a thing.

Clemency is ok. It can get a PLD out of a pinch but isn't sustainable in battle at a constant rate.

^ This is where I argue "PLD is not a healer". Why should you be able to sustain it? Anytime you heal another player, you prevent a healer from healing. There is already so little to heal, that healers DPS.

I also feel compelled to say that if a tank and healer dps, it doesn't take away from dps' obligation or ability to maintain high dps.

I'm saying, not every class was given the cross class ability and not able to use it.
...
Tell me. How many other classes got new skills that simply covered up the mistakes of their cross class skills (and not even that well).

I agree with you in the sense that PLD cross-class options are terrible, I dont agree with the solution you support. I also wouldnt say that they gave you those skills to cover up bad ones, but if we're just listing new skills from HW that are comparably better than useless/near useless cross-class skills, off the top off my head:

WHM:
Ruin -> Stone III
Blizzard II -> Assize
Physick -> Tetragrammaton
Surecast, not even a replacement

SCH:
Blizzard II, not even a replacement
Cure, not even a replacement
Raise, not even a replacement
Surecast, not even a replacement

[winsock]

Do you believe that it is okay to have a skill that can't be used? Because that is exactly Raise atm without the battle trait.

I do not think its okay, but that doesnt make your supported solution balanced.
Physick and Ruin are useless to WHM. It isnt justification to buff them.
Raise and Cure are useless to SCH and AST. It isnt justification to buff them.
Also, while it isnt fair to have a skill that cant be used, it also isnt fair to have a trait that cant be used. What would you give WHM in exchange?

Would paladin be OP with brez? No.

Why?

I would like to see how often could one paladin using brez save the party from something like your Ravana example.

So the paladin manages after 8 sec. to raise one healer, drained and in a sorry state, while taking hits. How does the recovery go from there? Even if you had two paladins. I can't see how would the healers manage to recover anything on regular basis.

Ravana isnt exactly healing intensive.
Insta-heals, MP skills, and even Pots are easily available on rez, not like they need to be used during the add phase.

[Archaell]

Paladin would not be OP, because:

1) Other jobs can ressurect dead party members.
2) Paladin can't cross-class swiftcast.
3) Hallowed ground doesn't prevents all damage, it prevents most of damage, so mechanics that are supposed to wipe the group always wipe the group.

As you are concerned with paladin stepping on healers' toes. Have you thought that WHM would need a new trait? I bet it would mean decreased cast time for Raise, making battle ressing paladin even less good in comparison.