Suggestion - Paladin Identity and new stance?

[Archaell]

...

Well... Oh sweet PLD! He can help raise people who aren't supposed to die in the first place, let's take him instead of War.

Utility focused towards correcting mistakes is usually less usefull than utility that always works - like Warrior's dps helping with dps checks. If PLD was able to brez, it would give him small utility in specific situations. It doesn't seem so ground breaking to me as there are already 4 other classes who can battle res.

[Malicewolf]

I'm glad that you never wipe then because you and all your parties are perfect! I do not have such a nice luxury. Have you seen a SMN who decided to opt out of keeping Raise because "we have 2 healer's who can do that"? And would you rather see my PLD with the current cure while we're out in a fight? Yes, it's situational. In a perfect run, a PLD shouldn't need hallowed ground. Nor should a WAR use Holmgang. Or a DRK use living dead. Do we end up using them? Heck yea. All the time. We all make mistakes. I shouldn't "Need" to use clemency. I'm not looking for a ground breaking change that'll make PLD's the new best tank out there. I'm looking for something that'll help give us a separate identity from them that's still useful. Right now, it's simply, "oh, PLD is 'extra' mitigation, but we don't need extra mitigation". Giving us more DPS would be nice, yes. But matching us to be identical to a WAR isn't what I want.

[winsock]

The justification is exactly that. PLD is able to cross class CNJ skills, so they should be able to use them.
...
The problem with that trait is that it's totally arbitrary.
...

Here's why this isn't justification:
* Raise is not a brez for anyone crossclassing it. That is consistent.
* SE letting a class have a skill does not automatically imply that the class should have a more powerful/useful version of that skill.
* removing raise as a crossclass skill would also correct this issue by your standard.


But again, I'd like to know, if SE was wanting feedback on whether or not to give everyone brez, would you be for or against it/Is there any scenario where you would recommend not giving brez to a class? Cause if not, the we're probably discussing the wrong topic.

[Februs]

Clemency is not relevant as it is now, so, what good would it make ?

Why not taking my suggestion of switching STR and MND when in "heal oath" (And tie Clemency with Mind) ? This would natturally nerf your own DPS in a very simple way, while tremendously increasing your healing output. And since PLD would only have access to single target Cure, this would never make it a real main healer.

One, Clemency is useful when Off tanking, and, as much as the cast is far to slow to be considered very useful in combat, I have, actually, used it to pretty good effects in Raids, usually on Squishier Dps. Sometimes you get interrupted. Sometimes you don't. It's not saving they day or anything (the healers can usually handle it alone if they have to), but it has frees up the healer to apply buffs or have less frantic party healing when they're working down the list and find that some of the Dps have already been capped. It's just for sake of helping out, really. The utility is using it to help manage your TP (at least at the moment, while SE can't seem sort out a proper method of fixing that problem) and providing support to the healers. Even if Clemency goes off and the healers have already capped the player you targeted, Clemency ensures that you get a portion of that healing back to yourself (quite a bit, especially with Convalescence up). No matter what, using Clemency provides support to your healers either by healing the person you target or by healing you. It has more than enough utility.

And the reason I'd rather not go with the STR and MND swap in a heal oath is because of Pld dps and gear set combinations. Again, I'm not interested in increasing Pld Dps to be equal to Wars or anything, but I also don't want to lower it either. Swapping stats in a healer oath would work out fine for healing, but it would also dramatically lower our base dmg output. Considering the massive stiffy SE has for Dps checks right now, that would FAR worse for raid utility than getting some extra healing. Also, swapping the stat values would always be hindered and tied to our gear loadouts. People tend to forget that Str and Det scale with one another. If a Pld loaded up with Str gear (which most often comes with Det as a secondary), when they swapped their Str and Mnd stats they'd be losing the potency that Str normally gains off of Det. Basically, you'd be killing our baseline Dps output for lackluster healing.

[Malicewolf]

Can I put one little extra tid bit out there. Everyone is talking ONLY about end game raid utility I feel. But let's not forget that we can find uses in the lvl sync'd dungeons below lvl 50 as well. Cure stays with us as a cross class skill; Clemency does not. Not saying end game dungeons and raids aren't important, but let's also not forget how crippled a low lvl PLD that's lvl sync'd is in comparison to their counterpart tanks.

[Reynhart]

* SE letting a class have a skill does not automatically imply that the class should have a more powerful/useful version of that skill.

/cough Protect
/cough Stoneskin

* removing raise as a crossclass skill would also correct this issue by your standard.

Yeah...and removing PLD will remove all complain about PLD...maybe you could try real examples, for once...

But again, I'd like to know, if SE was wanting feedback on whether or not to give everyone brez, would you be for or against it/Is there any scenario where you would recommend not giving brez to a class? Cause if not, the we're probably discussing the wrong topic.

You question just seems weirder and weirder...And I won't answer it, because:
- If I say yes, you'll just say "Oh, my god, are you insane, you want everyone to be able to raise in battle ?!"
- If I say no, you'll say "Oh, why are you discriminating other classes ! You want PLD to be the special snowflake !!!"

One, Clemency is useful when Off tanking, and, as much as the cast is far to slow to be considered very useful in combat, I have, actually, used it to pretty good effects in Raids, usually on Squishier Dps.

Yes, it can be useful, but most of the time, you can skip any cast of Clemency without having any effect on the outcome. That's why I say it's not relevant

And the reason I'd rather not go with the STR and MND swap in a heal oath is because of Pld dps and gear set combinations. Again, I'm not interested in increasing Pld Dps to be equal to Wars or anything, but I also don't want to lower it either. Swapping stats in a healer oath would work out fine for healing, but it would also dramatically lower our base dmg output.

You could still deactivate your oath to retain a "basic" DPS output. Of course, you'd be doing less that nowadays, but it wouldn't be your goal.

Considering the massive stiffy SE has for Dps checks right now, that would FAR worse for raid utility than getting some extra healing.

Remember, I imagined the healing stance to allow you to skip one healer to bring an additionnal DPS. Because what is important for DPS check is the overall DPS. If the party can output the same DPS, it's not important that PLD is really low personnaly.

Also, swapping the stat values would always be hindered and tied to our gear loadouts. People tend to forget that Str and Det scale with one another. If a Pld loaded up with Str gear (which most often comes with Det as a secondary), when they swapped their Str and Mnd stats they'd be losing the potency that Str normally gains off of Det. Basically, you'd be killing our baseline Dps output for lackluster healing.

Det doesn't scale with STR, it scales with everything. So, Det would apply to our healing potency, which is the exact focus off the healing stance.

[Kosmos992k]

Can I put one little extra tid bit out there. Everyone is talking ONLY about end game raid utility I feel. But let's not forget that we can find uses in the lvl sync'd dungeons below lvl 50 as well. Cure stays with us as a cross class skill; Clemency does not. Not saying end game dungeons and raids aren't important, but let's also not forget how crippled a low lvl PLD that's lvl sync'd is in comparison to their counterpart tanks.

I've never been thinking in terms of End-game. My entire concept is based on normal play because currently in 'normal' play, all our CNJ cross class skills are damn near redundant or useless.

[Malicewolf]

I'm perfectly fine with PLD's being special snowflakes. SMN's are special snowflakes right now. They are the only non-healing class that can brez. Ninja's are the only battle class that can hide. They are special snowflakes (special sneaky snowflakes). I don't mind if PLD's become a special snowflake because it simply means, they are different and they SHOULD be. They should NOT be way better than the other tanks, but they should have their own unique identity to make them useful and different than the other's.

And sorry kosmos, it wasn't referred to you. I really just meant the recent posts were all focusing on end game content which heavily relies on dps checks. But this discussion is about more than just that and I'm just trying to make sure that doesn't get lost in this discussion.

[Reynhart]

I'm perfectly fine with PLD's being special snowflakes.

Poor soul, don't say that !
In these parts, the mere idea of wanting to be special automatically dismisses anything you might have to say

Almost like "I think PLD should need..." will automatically be dismissed by a condescending "You must stay in the shadow of the mighty Warrior !"

[Malicewolf]

I'm NOT perfectly fine with PLD's being special snowflakes. I want to be a wanna be WAR with sword and shield!

Is that better?