Patch 3.1 and the Problems with a Two Tier Model of Content

[ZanzhizExaverion]

Overworld -> Diadem -> Dungeons -> Story Mode Trials -> Void Ark -> Normal Alexander -> Bismarck EX -> Ravana EX -> Thordan EX -> Nothing -> Savage Alexander

Casual content is extremely abundant and honestly. It doesn't teach people anything. You have people getting crushed in Bizzy, people not knowing how to count to 4 in Ravana. NOTHING will save these people unless casual content forces them to improve at least a tiny bit.

As for the scale. Thordan EX is the PERFECT level for midcore/subparhardcore content we're looking for. A1S+A2S I'd put below Thordan, and A3S/A4S above. Far above.

We need more abundant content, like Thordan. Simple, extremely punishing mechanics lumped on top of each other to create 'raid' awareness. Nothing is Cryptic. Once you see it you understand it.

We need dungeons with this level of awareness, raids with this level of awareness, and waaay more trials with this level of awareness. It's incredibly designed, simple, but keeps you on your toes.

Ravana is a dance. Follow the steps and you win. Bismarck is a dps check. Learn your class you win. Oppressor is like Ravana and Bismarck together. Dancing while DPSing. And A2S is monster control, which could be added in "Savage" dungeon content. It all works out... The devs just refuse to DO IT.

Normal Alex teaches you nothing. The checks are too lenient. Void ark teaches you nothing. Though it has punishing mechanics; people who care can carry alt-tabbers through. Casual content is people sleeping through content.

[Welsper59]

Keyboard-slapping easy or Subscription-Sucking hard are the only two things right now. There's 0 horizontal progression STILL. The devs lied about their "change of direction" for 3.0. we need MORE. Release Coid Ark at the same time as new Raids. Release things TOGETHER. So people can gear up. So people have a myriad of things to run. Not one, then the other, then the other, then the other. EVERY PATCH HAS BEEN LIKE THIS.

We want MORE than ONE thing to run.

You know this also means a significant increase of time between patches, right? As in a minimum of 6 months per patch. Do you seriously think 6 months of doing the same content will keep you (and the majority of players) interested time and time again? Most of us are your stereotypical ADHD player. We need new things constantly to keep us interested.

Something to also note is that we do have horizontal progression, ESPECIALLY with the faceroll that is Diadem. We always had the endgame raid tier (Coil/AS/tomes) and the casual tier (24-man/Diadem/tomes), where the difference was mostly in the ilvl. With Diadem, we actually have another means to acquire the same ilvl of gear.

When it comes to horizontal progression, you need gear with a variety of stats to spread out. We don't have that here. Outside of tanks gearing for STR or VIT, we only have stats that you want for every single occasion of your role. That's all. With that said, the "progression" in "horizontal progression" is not a statement on the content to obtain said gear. It's a statement on the equipment in general. Two different subjects. In the current situation, it's just more fitting to say that they should release the content in the order of the ilvl (24man before Savage tier) or, as you said, together. The latter however is just a matter of whether or not you're willing to wait. Still not accurate to say we have no horizontal progression though.

[ZanzhizExaverion]

Horizontal progression implies you can progress in more ways than one from one starting point. We have Progression Patches and Catch-Up patches as it stands. "Branched" progression if you want to make it more accurate. Releasing content with higher ilvl later is nor horizontal, it's down the line. Think like a tree. The trunk is always the FIRST form of that progression in FFXIV. However horizontal progression would be have multiple trunks to climb, not just one to start with.

Edit; For example in 3.2; if past performances hold up... ALL previous content will be eliminated from the spectrum and we will be planting a NEW progression tree. That will continue for 2 patches and then once again, a NEW tree will be planted. Relic is the only side-grade the game currently (or will eventually) offer.

[Thayos]

I'm not sure how much of the majority only have 4 hours to play because I'm sure they came from alot of other mmos like xi, wow, or even ffxiv 1.0 which were very grindy games that take alot of time and effort, and I'm sure they have something to say about all these changes in 3.1. Saying its the majority of the playerbase is a stretch imo

A lot of us did come from those older games... and just like those games, we've aged significantly.

When I first started playing FFXI, I was only like three years out of college and living in a tiny apartment in California with no responsibilities other than my job. Now, I'm married, I'm a manager at my company and the wife and I have developed a social life. We're working like crazy to pay off some bills so we can free up money to possibly adopt.

My past life of a gamer in FFXI is completely irrelevant. Life simply doesn't allow adults with growing lists of responsibilities to spend countless hours per week in a video game.

Also, gamers of similar ages/responsibility levels tend to flock together in social games. So while your FC makeup may be different, most of my somewhat larger FC is made up of similar-aged adults, and only a small number of us spend substantial hours in the game.

[Vespar]

Feedback is good but my points are this ->
1. Everyone's tastes differ and This doesnt mean that the posts you or anyone else on the forums make represent even HALF of the subscriber base, and it does not make forum users the "Majority"
2. Because everyone's tastes for content differ there will always be players who prefer one kind of content vs another and/or feel that the content we have is not enough or does not cater enough to them.

It is my belief that SE is tailoring their content as best they can to the needs of their subscribers. Sadly, they cant possibly cater to all and if a player starts to hate this game because it doesn't cater to their needs, then perhaps its not the right game for them and you know what, That's OK. It's just a realization that we have to come to on our own.

[Welsper59]

Horizontal progression implies you can progress in more ways than one from one starting point. We have Progression Patches and Catch-Up patches as it stands. "Branched" progression if you want to make it more accurate. Releasing content with higher ilvl later is nor horizontal, it's down the line. Think like a tree. The trunk is always the FIRST form of that progression in FFXIV.

Like I said though, that's exactly what we have, especially now that Diadem is a thing. Two different content, Diadem and AS, both offering the same ilvl of reward. If we want more branches to the tree, however, that's where my mention of the gear comes in. It makes the rewards almost pointless with what we have now, unless people are okay with the same stats being a thing for each form of content. I somehow doubt that though with all the "Savage is pointless with Diadem" stupidity going around. As is, they're already sorta pushing it with 3 forms of i210 gear being a thing lol. Thinking more on it, I suppose it isn't that big of a deal though to repeat the same gear over and over again with multiple branches in the same raid tier... though it'd get old rather quick I would assume lol. We generally will shift towards the lazier approach and look at our own actions as something bad that the devs are "making" us do simply because they're not forcing us to do the harder content. Funny how many of us find that one form of "force" is approved of over another when it comes to choice. I'm just going on a tangent with that one though and doesn't refer to any one person in particular, pay no mind to it.

Edit: Just saw your edit. Then it comes down to whether or not everyone would be okay with the 6 month or longer drought. Given what happened with the 5 month one, and how quickly people become bored with content, even with some leeway, it doesn't amount to more than a few months before, at best, people start to look at there being a drought of content. This also means, however, that some other content will likely have alterations to expected time for completion. Example would be the beast tribe quests. If there's a drought period of no additional content to stimulate us, expect the length of time to complete the reputation grind to be doubled, even tripled the time, simply because it needs to tide folks over until any form of new content is meaningfully released.

[ZanzhizExaverion]

@Welpser

That's the thing though dude. Savage IS essentially pointless with Diadem. Because Diadem is brainless catch-up content. And in 3.2 it will all be obliterated with Tomestones of Trigonometry. Not progressive. Imagine if in 3.x we had a raid tier. i250 for example. Then we add a new, Savage Dungeon progression tier, rewards? i250. Make Gear drop in Laex, Accessories drop in Dungeons. Add midcore (like thordan difficulty) trials and 4 man dungeons to achieve 240 gear, even. 245 weapons even if you make it to the end.

Diadem creates an illusion of horizontal progression. You're not accomplishing anything with Diadem. It's just there. That's grinding, not progressing. There's only one starting point. Tomestone+Raid. Why cant we have Tome+Raid+Dungeon+Relic+Trial progression on restart patches?

[SerCypher]

I think I'm being misinterpreted a bit.

2.0 Progression felt like a road from hitting 50 to finishing coil. The best gear could only be found in Coil, and you needed to beat coil to see the whole story.

There were things with a whole range of difficulties, but most things were at least semi challenging. Now everything other than the hardcore raid content is meant to be face roll easy.

Crystal Tower is a good example. Go back and look at Void Ark compared to crystal tower. Crystal tower was a fight that required coordination between the groups and within the groups. It was a dungeon where every team had to do their role, and even one person screwing up would wipe a fight. Even still, people got through it, and had fun.

Void Ark is just running through and DPSing things, and mistakes can be healed through. The challenge is gone, it's just 45 mindless minutes to complete for the week.

[ZanzhizExaverion]

Crystal Tower is a good example. Go back and look at Void Ark compared to crystal tower. Crystal tower was a fight that required coordination between the groups and within the groups. It was a dungeon where every team had to do their role, and even one person screwing up would wipe a fight. Even still, people got through it, and had fun.

Void ark has amazing examples of this; it's called the Poison Room and Cuchulain. They both can wipe your raid if nobody does what they're supposed to. CT wasn't hard... Ever. But I will say Labyrinth had the most bosses LIKE CUCHULAIN, that require people to work together.

Behe/Bone/Phlegethon everyone had to pull weight. Syrcus/WoD... Not so much.

[Welsper59]

@Welpser

That's the thing though dude. Savage IS essentially pointless with Diadem. Because Diadem is brainless catch-up content. And in 3.2 it will all be obliterated with Tomestones of Trigonometry. Not progressive. Imagine if in 3.x we had a raid tier. i250 for example. Then we add a new, Savage Dungeon progression tier, rewards? i250. Make Gear drop in Laex, Accessories drop in Dungeons. Add midcore (like thordan difficulty) trials and 4 man dungeons to achieve 240 gear, even. 245 weapons even if you make it to the end.

Diadem creates an illusion of horizontal progression. You're not accomplishing anything with Diadem. It's just there. That's grinding, not progressing. There's only one starting point. Tomestone+Raid. Why cant we have Tome+Raid+Dungeon+Relic+Trial progression on restart patches?

Oh ok, I get what you're saying now. You essentially want a spread of rewards to represent the horizontal progression. Most of us are accustomed to there being multiple sets of the same (or nearly same) ilvl of gear when people refer to horizontal progression, which is why I stressed that it's what we have now. Stuff that offers different difficulty levels to represent the skill needed to gain gear of relatively equal measure, hence the different branches mention also fitting that form.