Suggestion - Paladin Identity and new stance?

[winsock]

You're very good at shifting ground and forcing a question without first explaining why the suggestions made are unbalanced or overpowered - other than asserting that they are. You're not saying why you assert that this is overpowered, simply describing an imminent wipe and declaring that because a PLD might be able to avert it, it's overpowered. It seems like you are essentially saying it's OP because you said so, and then from that you challenge me to come up with the minimum changes I think would be needed to qualify as OP.

I thought I gave an explanation earlier in regards to res, but i'll elaborate. Would you agree that in terms of the "tank", "healer", and "dps" roles, that those roles are defined, at least in part, by their responsibilities? In the ravana example I gave:
The tanks have a responsibility to keep threat, and not taking that responsibility will result in a wipe.
The healers have some responsibility over the hp bars of the party, not taking that responsibility will result in a wipe.
The DPS have a responsibility to burn the adds during the add phase, not burning enough will currently result in a wipe.
^ would you agree that this is at least somewhat balance currently, in that everyone has a role to fill, and that the penalty for not filling that role has a similar consequence?

If PLD brez was a thing, the PLD recovers the group after the failed add phase, and the run is successful: It's because the PLD alone progressed past the mechanic. 1 class would be able to circumvent mechanics intend for multiple people in the party. 1 PLD would be strong enough to progress past a phase that the 5-7 other party members could not clear when attempting to work together. That in a nutshell is why I believe it to be unbalanced. Why do you believe it is balanced?

Why should I do that? I'm here to discuss the changes I proposed, not be side tracked into an irrelevant discussion about things not proposed simply to allow you to derail the discussion without even explaining your own position on the suggested changes.

How is it irrelevant?
You're suggesting buffs.
I am arguing that your buffs are unbalanced.
You are arguing that your buffs are balanced.
We disagree over what is and isnt unbalanced / balanced.

So where is that line for you? The minimum point in which a buff goes too far? Do you have one clearly defined for yourself? If you dont, how would you even be able to tell if your proposed changes were unbalanced or not?

Complete Transparency: I think you're off base because of a faulty premise. Since you've dodged the question twice now, I'm thinking I might be on to something.

[Bravely_Default]

^ If it wasn't designed to be an instant wipe then I do not see the problem of giving the paladin a battle raise. Healers can already fail their mechanic on A4 for example, but a summoner can revive one of them. So isn't that one class circumventing mechanics?

[Malicewolf]

Snip

Ok so the lemme get this straight. Tanks should no longer have to deal any dps worthy damage. Healers should only heal and res. dps should only deal max damage and take out adds. Sheesh so easy. No wonder so many fail. Silly summoner a trying to res people. Crazy healeris bothering to attack things. And silly tank for bothering with anything other than flash all day every day. We can all go to sleep now folks. We fixed the game

[Jandor]

The tanks have a responsibility to keep threat, and not taking that responsibility will result in a wipe.
The healers have some responsibility over the hp bars of the party, not taking that responsibility will result in a wipe.
The DPS have a responsibility to burn the adds during the add phase, not burning enough will currently result in a wipe.
^ would you agree that this is at least somewhat balance currently, in that everyone has a role to fill, and that the penalty for not filling that role has a similar consequence?

Yeah, would be nice if things could be a bit blurrier though.

[Shurrikhan]

In regards to the "pointless" Sword Oath:

1. The improved Sword Oath would be flagrantly overpowered. We're that not much behind WAR in terms of single-target OT dps, and ahead of DRK when its mana is strained.

2. The "improved" Sword Oath does not aid stance-dancing as MT, since its damage increase coincides with enmity and mitigation (and faint shield swipe proc) loss.

3. The auto-attack potency increase is already a huge bonus. With a 1.5s delay sword, that would mean another 2k potency per minute, or with a 2s delay sword and extra 1500 per minute, even in Shield Oath... Compare that with the at best 600 potency per minute buff to tanking dps via oGCD Shield Swipe and consider again if your suggestion is at all reasonable... (And you'd then be getting an extra 10% of that with your new Sword Oath...)

4. Sword Oath itself is far from pointless. For every combo, Sword Oath puts out approximately 160 potency for a 2.4s sword, or ~200 potency for a 1.9 second sword, ~250 for a 1.5s sword, etc. That's a good 23% to 36% of your RA combo... Over a single GB (22.5s, 1 dot clipped)
500+150+200+360+150+200+360+150+230 (2280) Sword Oath would be equal to 562.5 potency with a 2.0s weapon, or almost 25% of your weaponskill-based dps.

Include also your regular AA potency of 750 per 22.5s, Shield Swipe's up to 225 potency average over a theoretical 22.5 seconds, 225 average from Spirits Within, 225 from Circle of Scorn, and Sword Oath still composes 562.5 of 4,267 potency per 22.5 seconds, or 13.2% of your potency per GB window (with a 2.0s sword). That's a fair bit better than Deliverance, even with its Fell Cleave. And keep in mind the percentage would be higher if you weren't tanking (no Swipes, let alone a theoretical maxing thereof) --> 13.9% with a 2.0s sword.

So there you have it, with a mid-speed sword, Sword Oath is contributing around 13% of your dps. That's not exactly "pointless".

If you want a "more interesting" version of Sword Oath, it cannot be stacked upon another version that, while lackluster, is damn effective. I'll agree that Sword Oath is dull, though there is one thing I like about it: I can drop Shield before swapping to it. (That's it. That's literally the only thing I like about it.) Its time necessary to be a potency gain isn't necessarily that much longer than WAR's stance-dance CD (+/- which combo you're using, your oGCDs, and the fact that you'll do 3 or 6 moves (5 if desperate), never 4). If, say, you wanted to trade it out for... generating Crusade stacks where you can re-combo an ability (costs 1 stack for a 2nd-tier combo, 3 stacks for a finisher, and each unduplicated combo generates a stack)... that could be interesting, but you'd have to see how much of a potency increase that actually is and how fun it would be to use in actual gameplay, not just the idea of it.

[Yes, every oGCD contributes, theoretically, exactly the same potency in a GB window, just like they each contribute, theoretically (full health and perfect procs) 600 potency per minute. It's surprisingly nice and tidy in that way. oGCD Shield Swipe just added a third 10 potency/second oGCD to the mix.)
Note: with a 2.0s blade, Sword Oath provides 1500 per minute, about the same as your three oGCDs if you could only proc 2 Swipes per minute.)
Shield Swipe = 150 x 22.5/15 = 225. Spirits Within = 150 x 22.5/30 = 225. Circle of Scorn = 250 x 22.5/25 = 225.

tldr: Your suggestions would make likely make PLD a contending easy-mode DPS without solving much if any of its real issues. You should work out the math behind what you're asking a bit more.

---------------------------------------------------------------
As for the new stance (heal oath):

1. PLD's strength, the stat from which Clemency's 1200 potency is based, will still likely blow the Vit/Mind-based Cure out of any real use. All the more so when they could be dpsing for OP numbers instead of heal-casting for a mere 400 potency at a time.

2. If anything, PLD needs a higher barrier (percentage of damage dealt required to interrupt), into which defensive CDs could synergize, not just an RNG shield. Nor does this help really with MT healing, where Shield Oath was already technically helping. Given SE's rigidity of universal design (11 traits for every class), it's unlikely that its interruption can be solved by a trait, so it would have to be attached to an oath (where the one that makes the most sense would be Shield Oath), all oaths, or to Clemency itself (since non-WHM Stoneskin's been screwed since 3.0 anyways)...

3. The sheer swap time and mana cost would eat too deeply into its benefits.

4. Even if you could then heal significantly, it likely wouldn't be worth the mitigation or dps benefits of the other two stances in almost any situation (esp. any situation Clemency couldn't already cover).

__________________________________________________

To keep from nit-picking without providing anything, here's some stuff I think might help / would like to see.

I. Easy fixes for the important shit (mostly enmity)

1. Increase Savage Blade enmity modifier from 3.0 to 3.75 (Spinning and Skull each use 3.5) -- Increases from 600 to 750 potency-worth of enmity.
2. Increase Rage of Halone potency from 260 to 280. Enmity modifier remains at 5.0. (Power and Butcher each use 5.5.) -- Increases from 1300 to 1400 potency-worth of enmity.
* Main point is to decrease the damage gap between RoH and RA for support (str down) reasons, rather than to push up burst threat significantly.
* We don't want to take threat from the MT just by debuffing. But because we're getting an extra 450-600 enmity per dps combo's midstep, this becomes a concern.
* Average and (nonCD) burst threat should probably fall within 15% of the other tanks. It's okay if their dynamics are a bit different.
**Your

*** Suggestion: apply the change to Savage Blade via trait at level 40. Make the current level 40 trait's change to Rage of Halone (increasing Str Down from 5% to 10%) default. Having RoH be worth cycling for debuffs will not break their meta at levels 26-40, but it's also fine for Flash to remain their strongest enmity provider until then.

OR (True parity (apart from the need to maintain and bonus of Maim / Darkside):
1. Increase Savage Blade enmity modifier from 3.0 to 3.5 (Spinning and Skull each use 3.5) -- Increases from 600 to 700 potency-worth of enmity.
2. Increase Rage of Halone potency from 260 to 280. Increase enmity modifier from 5.0 to 5.5 (Power and Butcher each use 5.5.) -- Increases from 1300 to 1540 potency-worth of enmity.
* This will have a 190-higher enmity output per RA+RoH combo. This can lead to stealing threat when debuffing.

OR (Smoothest solution, but does not solve stance dancing issues)
1. Shield Oath increase the threat modifiers of all weaponskills and abilities by .25.
(Riot Blade now 517.5 from 460. Rage of Halone now 1885 from 1820. Royal Authority now 765 from 680. Increases tri-combo threat by 545 (2180 base weaponskill potency to 2725 base enmity potency).
* Now easier to pull off Goring Blade openers. If not enough for this purpose, maybe try .33?
* Yet, does not provide so much enmity as to rip hate off the MT.
** Poorer side effect... makes RoH even less viable. Likely it would still need a potency boost.
** Again, no aid to Sword Oath tanking. Helps stance-dancing only in-so far as by dancing to Sword Oath for 25 seconds (GB to GB) every FoF or so.
*** Can possibly even have it reduce multiplicative modifier very slightly, and push the additive multiplier up more, but then we'd REALLY need that RoH potency up.

Now, let's actually compare adapted values to the 3 combos of another tank. Of course, this is just a gloss. Maintainable buffs assumed to be already up. I'll try to edit in tank-stance-buffed versions later. We will also assume all have the Slashing debuff provided them.

1)HS - Maim - SE - HS - SS - BB - HS - Maim - SP
150+190+270+150+700+1540+150+190+250 x 1.2 = 3590 x 1.2 = 4308
OR
2) HS - Maim-SE - HS - SS - BB - HS - SS - BB
150+190+270+150+700+1540+150+700+1540 x 1.2 = 6480

1) FB - RB - GB[DoT] - FB - SB - RoH - FB - SB - RA
150+230+220[280]+150+750+1400+150+750+340 = 4420 (currently 4020 [+400]). Now ahead on average threat.

2) FB - RB - GB[DoT]- FB - SB - RoH - FB - SB - RoH
150+230+220[280]+150+750+1400+150+750+1400 = 5480 (currently 4980 [+500]), still behind by 1000

[Let's compare BB and RoH spam rq, assuming that Maim will only fade on the last BB...]
HS-SS-BB-HS-SS-BS-HS-SS:BB
150+700+1540+150+700+1540+150+700+1155 x 1.2 = 6785

FB-SB-RoH-FB-SB-RoH-FB-SB-RoH
150+750+1400+150+750+1400+150+700+1400 = 6900 (currently 6600 [+300]). Can now win in a straight up (prolonged) average threat contest. FoF will still be beaten by Unleashed.

Consider: how might you want the dynamics of PLD vs. WAR to work. If each opened with Storm/Goring, then PLD may gain on Riot, lose briefly on Goring, take back on next DoT tick, hold on Savage/Skull, lose on Butcher (unless a DoT crits), and will gain again on Savage(RA)/Maim(Storm) or will remain behind until next RoH, where, if WAR must reapply a Storm, PLD will remain ahead, but if WAR can BB WAR will hold for one more combo. If WAR Maims, then PLD likely takes via DoTs even if reapplying . If WAR BBs w/o Maim up, PLD will likely take, and will absolutely take next combo.

*ramble, ramble, ramble, got bored. Hiding block.*

II. Side-issue ideas (still easy fixes):

- Casts are too slow, and flash drags behind my otherwise 2.4 GCD
--> Skill Speed now affects PLD casts.

- Shelltron wasted on a 400 dmg AA, wtf
-> Shelltron will now block a minimum potency of X over the next 1.5 seconds after deployment before fading. (Very low value that may still be taken out by strong AAs before an actual ability (what you intended to block), but is not so likely to be consumed by a single weak attack now. --> Can still be wasted on bigger AAs

- Shelltron totally favors tower shields
Cooldown now scales with shield type. (20s for bucklers, 25s kites, 30s tower shields.) --> not technically fair (should be 17, 24, 30), but one step at a time, especially since Swipe favors bucklers already. If Swipe was further buffed, this would have to be removed for our 'shield balance'.

- Guy died before Clemency could hit
1. Clemency now does 67% of its healing and drains mana as a channel, ticking every .5 seconds (modified by Speed). All healing done is duplicated by 50% at the end of the cast (or upon cancellation if more than 3 ticks in). Any overhealing that was done by Clemency's channel is stored as a Clemency buff and doubled at the end. Finishing the cast will consume 33% of Clemency's mana cost. The rest in consumed by the channel.
2. We need a way to swiftcast. --> stacking system given by Oaths that can be blown on quick-casts? Outright make Clemency an instant cast? (It already blows our mana)
3. We need a way to instant shield long enough to keep people alive for the cast. --> Pair it with a modification of something else? Change Shelltron to Aegis Boon, give it a minimum absorption based on shield block strength, and allow it to also target and cover for allies with 16 yalms; now you can at least save them from physical hits...

- Clemency keeps getting interrupted.
1. Shield Oath increases the (% of health) damage required to interrupt you. Apart from that, just make sure you're mitigating that shit to keep it under threshold.
2. Tempered Will now prevent casting interrupts. Hope you didn't need it for anything else.
3. Bulwark will now prevent casting interrupts.
4. Change Divine Veil into something cool and useful. Maybe it will synergize here.

- Clemency costs a bit too much mana.
1. Be in a party that needs ballad; that's probably the only time you'd use it anyways.
2. Okay, for real... reduce Clemency mana cost.
3. Increase Riot Blade mana returns.

- Divine Veil feels clunky and a bit too situational.
1. Do Savage / join a group with barely failing healers / yadayada
2. Remove heal requirement.
3. Once the heal is received your icon changes to show that it is activated, but you still have control over when to release it rather than the buff going out automatically.
4. Reduce the cooldown. Adjust Thrill of Battle and Reprise to compensate. ToB can now somehow provide raid max health increase and Reprise can now be used without first parrying and parries against Reprise-ed enemies can trigger Revengeance, allowing you to use the ability again at 100 potency and refresh the duration by 8-12 seconds.
5. Change the ability -> Now consumes a mitigation CD to spread it across the party. (Kind of like an alternate Cover, in a way...)
6. Scrap the ability -> Give us Inspire. Imagine possibilities.

- Cover lacks control.
1. Cover can now be cancelled from either side. The link may be reestablished as long as the buff has duration left. Breaking the link costs 2 seconds' duration. (Fewer self-inflicted deaths via Cover, possibly a bit OP)
2. Cover now splits damage according to the range between tanks beyond 7 yalms, to a minimum of 30% damage taken at 14 yalms. (Decreases by 10% per yalm) (Range increased to 14 yalms) (OP)

- Cover has other ways of shooting you in the foot.
1. Both the buffer and buffed in a Cover pair use the higher Defense and Magic Defense of the two for all transferred damage. (Just in case MT is better geared than you.)
2. Damage to be transferred by Cover is first mitigated by the target's buffs before being mitigated by your own, and is mitigated on the target side by the greater of your (m)Defense ratings. (OP)

- Mmm, I still want more bonuses in my Cover.
1. Any blocks, parries, or dodges done by your Cover target will now apply procs for the both of you.
2. (1 step further) Any block, parries, or dodges done by the Covering PLD or his target will apply procs for both.
3. Hits done to the Cover target whose damage is transferred to the PLD will still proc all effects (dodges, blocks, parries, Blood Price) on the Cover target before transferring. (Not certain if this is the case already. If not, make it so. This one's great for DRK MT, PLD OT in trash.)
4. ...already mentioned the 14-yalm Cover.

- I can't get enough of this Cover. I need more Cover.
1. Something Oath-related chips away at the cooldowns for Cover and certain other associated abilities. Each Oath might have something like this or another way of doing something similar.

- I want Shield Swipe as OT.
1. Then stack for split cleaves with Shelltron.
2. See Shelltron changed out for Aegis Boon above. Can now block for others, proccing your Shield Swipe.


Bigger Picture:

- PLD MT dps still lags behind WAR and DRK.
1. Make Shield Swipe work like Low Blow. Adjust its proc chance with shield type (40% with towers, 34% with kites, 28% with bucklers). There are prettier solutions and more creative things that can be done with this, but that's the simplest MT dps up, likely resulting in twice the potency per minute on rapid-hitting single target fights, more on AoEs.
2. See changes to SB and RoH or Shield Oath enmity. Increase RoH potency from 260 to 280.
3. Take the middle road between 3.0 and 3.1 Shield Swipe--treat Shield Swipe and Shield Bash like Empy Arrow (Shield moves use a separate GCD). Increase animation time for kite shields slightly (clip .75s or so into next GCD) and tower shields noticeably (clip 1.25s) while bucklers function like oGCDs. Allow use without a block, but blocks refresh CD. Scale TP cost, potency, and pacify duration across shield types.
4. Shield Oath does not diminish the potency of Shield Bash or Shield Swipe.
4. Increase RoH Strength Down duration to 22 or 24 seconds. This should keep you from having to spam it for safety, when it can actually affect something of value. Delirium should likely get the same treatment; since both are technically inferior to Storm's Path, they should both at least have a slightly longer duration, especially since neither awards nor can handle Skill Speed as well as WAR can.


- PLDs still have lowish AoE threat.
1. Flash potency reduced by 33% but now auto-crits to make use of Crit stat.
2. The 'null damage' of Flash now scales with offensive cooldowns (Fight or Flight).

- PLDs still have shit AoE, and most things that matter can't be blinded.
1. Attach cleave component to Sword Oath?
2. Revise Flash and how debuffs in general work, such that there's nothing that's entirely immune to Blind? (Revision of how hits/misses, accuracy, and parry/block/dodge work. Ideally, things that are blinded will be less accurate but won't necessarily miss all that much more on their own, but are instead more easily blocked/parried/dodged. The block/parry side of this can allow for more counterattack damage against blinded enemies, which works nicely for PLD Swipe and DRK LB/Reprise.)
3. Attach a small damaging component to Flash (such as a brief DoT)?
4. Attacking victims of Circle of Scorn now deals their DoT damage as a critical AoE around them.
5. etc. etc.

[Ralvenom]

4. Even if you could then heal significantly, it likely wouldn't be worth the mitigation or dps benefits of the other two stances in almost any situation (esp. any situation Clemency couldn't already cover).

THANK YOU! DEAR GOD...

[winsock]

^ If it wasn't designed to be an instant wipe then I do not see the problem of giving the paladin a battle raise. Healers can already fail their mechanic on A4 for example, but a summoner can revive one of them. So isn't that one class circumventing mechanics?

Technically speaking, pretty much every rez is because 1 or more ppl failed a mechanic. It could be as simple a player not avoiding the AoE he was standing in. To that extent, everyone makes mistakes and the difficulty of encounters can be reduced by skills like rez forgiving players for their mistakes. And, I dont think too many players have a problem with rez existing. But when a healer or SMN performs a rez, its usually in the form of 'accident forgiveness' in the sense that it helps resume what would otherwise be considered normal progression. And that's all it does.

In the A4 example where the healers get exploded, the SMN rez may have ultimately prevented a wipe, but did so by pulling a healer back to the path of normal progression through the phase, and on to the next set of debuffs. The healers are still required to push adequate healing throughout the phase to prevent a wipe.

In the ravana example, "1 PLD would be strong enough to progress past a phase that the 5-7 other party members could not clear when attempting to work together." In this instance the PLD's rez is progression. That is, it isnt pulling a fallen party member back to the normal path of completion to help with the dps check. It's an alternate path of completion, circumventing the normal dps check requirement for phase completion.

Ok so the lemme get this straight. Tanks should no longer have to deal any dps worthy damage. Healers should only heal and res. dps should only deal max damage and take out adds. Sheesh so easy. No wonder so many fail. Silly summoner a trying to res people. Crazy healeris bothering to attack things. And silly tank for bothering with anything other than flash all day every day. We can all go to sleep now folks. We fixed the game

I think you're reading too much into this. Could you please explain why 1 PLD should be able to progress a party through a phase that the 7 other party members could not pass while working together?

[Reynhart]

The tanks have a responsibility to keep threat, and not taking that responsibility will result in a wipe.
The healers have some responsibility over the hp bars of the party, not taking that responsibility will result in a wipe.
The DPS have a responsibility to burn the adds during the add phase, not burning enough will currently result in a wipe.
^ would you agree that this is at least somewhat balance currently, in that everyone has a role to fill, and that the penalty for not filling that role has a similar consequence?

If PLD rez was a thing, the PLD recovers the group after the failed add phase, and the run is successful: It's because the PLD alone progressed past the mechanic. 1 class would be able to circumvent mechanics intend for multiple people in the party. 1 PLD would be strong enough to progress past a phase that the 5-7 other party members could not clear when attempting to work together. That in a nutshell is why I believe it to be unbalanced. Why do you believe it is balanced?

First, because your "responsibilities" are only a fragment of the real game.

Healers are not the only one responsible for "HP bar". Everybody have several mechanics to manage, and can't blame the healer if they take too much avoidable damage.
Tanks, and especially PLD, also have some responsability of keeping others safe by offering some kind of mitigation or recovery. Cover and Divine Veil only works on other members, and Clemency is also designed to be used on other party members.

And even without Raise, it would be possible for a PLD to save such a disaster...in fact, I already gave you an example.
So, your example is no proof of why it would be unbalanced.

Also, you can say something is unbalanced when an option is undoubtedly better than the other. That is, setup we be built around this, jobs who don't fit into the option will be rejected in favor of jobs who will fit, etc...can you really say that if a PLD could raise, it will be chosen over DRK and WAR in most situations ?

1. PLD's strength, the stat from which Clemency's 1200 potency is based, will still likely blow the Vit/Mind-based Cure out of any real use.

Unless Clemency, like any other healing spell, would be tied to Mind, and that this "heal Oath" would switch Mind and Strength(a la Cleric Stance). Which would also prevent PLD from doing decent heal AND decent DPS at the same time. This would also make Cure more relevant, and Clemency more of an emergency heal.

Even if you could then heal significantly, it likely wouldn't be worth the mitigation or dps benefits of the other two stances in almost any situation (esp. any situation Clemency couldn't already cover).

Explain to me how it wouldn't if it allows you to bring an additionnal DPS to the party ?

I think you're reading too much into this. Could you please explain why 1 PLD should be able to progress a party through a phase that the 7 other party members could not pass while working together?

Should we remove the healer LB3, because it could allow one healer to progress a party through a phase that the 7 other party members could not pass working together ?

[Malicewolf]

I think you're reading too much into this. Could you please explain why 1 PLD should be able to progress a party through a phase that the 7 other party members could not pass while working together?

Not really. Your over simplifying it really. Tanks main responsibility is indeed to hold threat. But the REASON PLD's have been sidelined is because they cannot maintain the MT DPS that the other 2 can and have NO utility that makes them worthy otherwise. But instead of PLD's saying, "hey make me another WAR class!" we're saying, "hey, give me my own identity please". How this identity comes about, well, that's what we're all discussing here.

And you say that 1 PLD shouldn't be able to progress a party through a phase that 7 other's couldn't? Yet, my gf, who mains a summoner, did just that. Last one standing. Sent titan to keep aggro on boss. Did a swiftcast res on a healer. Healer popped pot, and used raise to get the other healer. The wipe was saved. It was 1 summoner that progressed a party through a phase that 7 other members couldn't pass working together. PLEASE tell me how a PLD being able to CHANCE this (because they WOULDN'T have swiftcast) and saving a wipe is MORE of a game changer? A summoner is a DPS, not a healer. Please explain how you are fine with one, but not the other. Perhaps you also think summoner's having summons is way to OP for the game?

In the A4 example where the healers get exploded, the SMN rez may have ultimately prevented a wipe, but did so by pulling a healer back to the path of normal progression through the phase, and on to the next set of debuffs. The healers are still required to push adequate healing throughout the phase to prevent a wipe.

Your "explanations" for why a SMN should be able to save a wipe instead of a PLD literally makes zero sense. What? Do you think a PLD is gonna use hallowed ground 15 times in a row and just spam res everyone forever? If we DID get the update to use raise in battle, we would have to wait 8 seconds to actually pull it off. We are NOT asking for swiftcast. We would of course res a healer in this scenario. We wouldn't have back up like a SMN would with their summon. We'd be on our own trying to save a wipe. A much harder feat that I think you're giving credit for. I see you are a lvl 60 WHM. Please, tell me. How many times have you been the last one standing and saved the wipe without using swiftcast? Sure, you're hp may not be as high, and your defense isn't as great, but I can probably bet, you didn't sustain much dmg getting to this point. Unlike a tank, who would be purposefully taking hits trying to soak dmg to save his party. If the rest of the party wipes, it's most likely because of an AoE or adds (which the OT should be handling).

I can understand Shurrikhan's argument. She doesn't believe the gains would be worth the losses. I can honestly see her point. Doesn't mean I don't still like the idea. Because in my mind, a PLD should be a partial healer. Not an amazing one, but i shouldn't be outdone in heals at lvl 60 by a lvl 10 conjurer. What that magic number is, I dunno. There'd have to be testing and tweaking, etc to figure out what's not OP and what's not useless. Because right now, a summoner can also do heals. But it doesn't mean they'll be good at it per say. My gf's SMN heals about 500-600 at lvl 53. It's not amazing. But it can sometimes make the difference in a wipe when a WHM isn't paying attention to the tank when trying to push out extra DPS.

Personally, I'd like to be able to use cure. Not as a heal all type move, but as a helper if needed in a tight spot. Something like, 800-1000hp healed per cure. It wouldn't be useless, but it wouldn't be on a healer's level. Then we'd have clemency to fall back on for an emergency big heal incase of an oh sh!t moment. Yes, giving a PLD more dps would truly help the class overall. But, me personally, I'd rather have my PLD be fun and have utility at the cost of pushing out DPS numbers like a WAR or DRK.

What can I say, I'm a masochist to think crossing (arguably) the two most frustrating jobs together for fun, but I think it'd be a fun challenge.

[winsock]

And you say that 1 PLD shouldn't be able to progress a party through a phase that 7 other's couldn't? Yet, my gf, who mains a summoner, did just that. Last one standing. Sent titan to keep aggro on boss. Did a swiftcast res on a healer. Healer popped pot, and used raise to get the other healer. The wipe was saved. It was 1 summoner that progressed a party through a phase that 7 other members couldn't pass working together.

No cigar. Saving a group from a wipe as the last one standing is one thing, but it is not the only thing the PLD does in the ravana example. The PLD res can be used INSTEAD of meeting the dps check required for normal progression. That isn't what the SMN did in your example.

Question for you:
Do you believe every class should have rez? Why/why not?