Suggestion - Paladin Identity and new stance?

[Malicewolf]

Oh look. It's that WAR that's in every PLD topic saying how much he knows more about PLD than us. Surprise surprise.

Anywho, i personally love the idea of a healing stance added. It would add more for a PLD to do in stance dancing to ensure they are at their utmost utility. At the moment, a lvl 60 PLD will heal with cure for about 300hp. Oh boy. I can't wait to go save everyone from impending doom! Cure itself is based upon magic weapon damage, mind and determination. We completely lose magic damage as our weapons do not have any. Therefore, the potency of our cures are simply crap at basically a 1+ heal per stat increase in mind because the other 2 factors are not exponential in increases for healing.

Clemency is a 1200 potency cure for PLDs.
Do you know how much potency cure's for magic user's have?
Cure - 400 potency
Cure II - 650 potency
Medica - 300 +aoe
Medica II - 200 +regen + aoe
Cure III - 550 +aoe
Tetragrammaton - 700 potency
then there's divine seal with increase healing potency

The reason the potency on Clemency is so high is because it HAS to be in order for the current healing to do anything decent at all. Our Clemency is about as good as a WHM cure II without any buffs. Probably not even actually.

So i think Clemency will definitely need to be tweaked if we get a healing stance, but that shouldn't be too bad. I'd be fearful though that we'd gain cure as a healing ability for cheaper and clemency would then become obsolete aside from the situational 1 heal for ALL hp back type save.

[winsock]

[WHM]Give them their shields back. Something I have argued for consistently... The idea is not to make the Paladin a viable healer, but to give them enough healing ability to survive a fallen healer, or anysituation where the healer(s) need help.

Having a shield as a WHM doesnt mean you can tank. Should they be able to actually tank a group of ilvl appropriate trash for a group?

If PLD can't replace a healer you still take a backseat to WAR and DRK.

*That* makes it overpowered? Really? How? Explain the point of cross classing Raise if it can't be used in any meaningful manner.

Not arguing that there is a reason to take, but there is a reason not to allow it. For example ever queue trial roulette and get ravana? Then see some adds not get killed and ravana kills everyone but the tank? Why should you be allowed to recover the party from a failed mechanic like that? Currently, you'll wipe if:
The tanks don't tank.
The healers don't heal.
The dps don't kill adds quick enough.
^ why should there be any possibility of recovering when failing that mechanic?

How is that buff everything?

You even use the term "jack of all trades in your proposal."
You're increasing max dps
Allowing shields to block magic
And increase healing output.
So that's dps, tankiness, and healing buffs. It doesn't really matter that there is a stance dancing mechanic involved. You'll still be able to pull better numbers in these categories than you could before.

I already indicated the buffs I think would work

And yet, never answered my question. So I'll ask again. What in your opinion would be the smallest buff / set of buffs that you could give PLD to consider it OP and why?

The buff you're suggesting would "work" in the sense that they would make certain skills more useful, but that doesn't mean these are balanced changes. So where do you draw the line? What is the minimum buff that would go too far? And why? What factors do you consider when determining whether or not a change is balanced?

[Malicewolf]

As nearly EVERY suggestion that the OP has referred to, we are not saying we need to "replace" the current tanks. It's the fact that PLD HAS been replaced by the other 2 that we are looking at things in such depth. But what most of us have realized is, we don't WANT to just be a WAR with more defense. And THAT is what giving PLD more DPS will do. It'll just turn us into a WAR with different moves. So people like the OP and others have taken a different mindset. What if, instead of becoming a 2nd WAR, we become something with it's OWN identity? Why not allow us to USE our cross class skills that we've been given and turn us into a hybrid that could never replace a healer, BUT take some slack off of them in emergency situations.
Healer's will NOT be replaced by PLD's. Because seriously people. When have you seen a WHM single curing everyone on the map and doing NO AoE heals and NO regens? Oh, I know the answer! NEVER!

[Ercapote]

for everyone here crying about paladin having a healing stance then...

- WMH and SCH should not be able to dps and SCH should not able to protect and shield players.


- SMN should not be able to tank, DPS should not be able to have tank-ish abilities, and they should not be able to get hit by the main boss without one shot kill from a direct attack.

- WAR should not be able to have a DPS stance and much less pure dps abilities that hit harder than any meele dps abilities.

is the game broken with all this? absolutely no, will the game break because of a semi-healing tank? f no, PLD with some healing aspect is a great idea


it will be just like a war with dps, is dps needed? no but warrior assisting to push even higher helps a lot.

is healing needed? not but having that extra healing/protection helps a lot. if you don't have a summoner and both healer dies, will not mean an automatic wipe since pld will still be able to raise and support the party.

not everyone plays perfect, your party will fck it up one way or another, having a healing aspect on the tank will balance a bit more this situation with pld wince it will drastically change the situation.

would you like a war and a drk for maximum dps up time and decent defence, with no support on healing.

or

would you like war and pld for a good mix of dps, and much more secure and sustained healing party support at the cost of less dps.

or perhaps

you will like DRK and PLD for maximun defense and party Healing at the cost of lowest tank dps.

it will greatly balance the party decision and no matter what fight every class will feel like a well choice with up times and down times...

even tho war will need to be a little nerfed on something since they are OP on everything, either utility, self- sustain, or mitigation (dps should not be touched) but something to relax that DRK+WAR mandatory set up.

[Reynhart]

^ why should there be any possibility of recovering when failing that mechanic?

Because, by avoiding any kind of decisive recovery, the game is becoming more and more hollow.

Again, it's not like strats will be built around that possibility, and that all other tanks will be dismissed...and this is without considering all the time where the fight goes well.

Moreover...
Let's say you are in...well, any fight...where the DPS fail their mechanics, the MT takes too much damage, and everyone is dead except one healer and you, the PLD. Since you were OT until now, you have less enmity than the healer, and only a few HP remaining. So, you run to the healer, use Provoke to take the target, and Hallowed Ground while the healer uses the LB3 heal to recover the whole party.

Do you want to remove Hallowed Ground because it could allow a PLD to recover a failed fight ? Why doesn't every setup still has a PLD for this kind of situation ?
Because it's totally irrelevant in the long run, so stop saying that allowing in-combat Raise will be "broken"...

[Kosmos992k]

The buff you're suggesting would "work" in the sense that they would make certain skills more useful, but that doesn't mean these are balanced changes. So where do you draw the line? What is the minimum buff that would go too far? And why? What factors do you consider when determining whether or not a change is balanced?

You're very good at shifting ground and forcing a question without first explaining why the suggestions made are unbalanced or overpowered - other than asserting that they are. You're not saying why you assert that this is overpowered, simply describing an imminent wipe and declaring that because a PLD might be able to avert it, it's overpowered. It seems like you are essentially saying it's OP because you said so, and then from that you challenge me to come up with the minimum changes I think would be needed to qualify as OP.

Why should I do that? I'm here to discuss the changes I proposed, not be side tracked into an irrelevant discussion about things not proposed simply to allow you to derail the discussion without even explaining your own position on the suggested changes.

[Dante_V]

I think some of the changes are a little much, but regardless it won't change the meta. Most of the issue IMO isn't really the pally but the encounters themselves. I think pally will be good thru out the next raid cycle.

[Reynhart]

I think some of the changes are a little much, but regardless it won't change the meta. Most of the issue IMO isn't really the pally but the encounters themselves. I think pally will be good thru out the next raid cycle.

I think not.
Let's see what tanks can do now.

• Gain enmity
• Mitigate damage
• Some DPS

Enmity is a non issue...
If the PLD remains the "tank that mitigates" it means than its DPS will always be lower than DRK or WAR.
But, since you can't force a PLD on every setup, you have to keep every content balanced so that WAR and DRK always have enough mitigation to MT well. So, any additionnal mitigation PLD have will always be wasted...
...unless the additionnal mitigation is so high than PLD don't need the same "support" than WAR or DRK.

[Bravely_Default]

They shouldn't have to build content just so one class in one job can do good. The encounters themselves make the issue COMPLETELY the class because when you enforce tight DPS checks the defender tank is obviously going to have a problem when main tanking. If the paladin is going to be the "defender" then give them group damage mitigation so that healers can DPS more thus making the checks just fine. Allowing parties to run any combination of tanks in an instance with different benefits being brought to the table should be the goal for ALL content.

[Jandor]

I don't really remember the hundreds of times I breezed through fights I know. I do remember the times when someone messed up, everyone upped their game in response and we just scraped through.
Close fights are fun and tools that allow you to recover from mistakes when they're used well are fun. A PLD with decent healing capabilities probably wouldn't be useful very often, but those times when it is useful would be great.