Suggestion - Paladin Identity and new stance?

[Tam_Hawkins]

A lot to talk about but the 1st thing I want to address is what do you mean PLD's shield is gone?

Not sure to be honest but i would assume it is because str and dex do not influence our blocks anymore.
As you said yourself the amount and rates of our blocks got nerfed a bit but that was to be expected with an Expansion comming out so I would assume she is talking about us not beeing able to improve that with our stats anymore.

Another reason could be that there is a lot of Magic dmg right now but we never had a shield for that (which is a goddam shame i would really like to use my shield and cover in Magic fights as well...)

[Risvertasashi]

the amount and rates of our blocks got nerfed a bit

our blocks got nerfed a bit

a bit

c_c




Anyways... I think the most straightforward change that would make PLD a less situational, more solid tank would be adding block procs to magic-based attacks. Kinda doubting SE will do it though...

[Ralvenom]

The suggested healing stance penalizes dps far more than defense, only reducing blocking rate and strength by 10%, so it's hardly a 'wet noodle'. As for being bad healing, if the strength of the cure being cast by a Paladin were based off the average of MND and VIT, it would be considerably stronger than it is right now, Clemency would remain unchanged except less likely to be interrupted, and PLD would be capable of raising in battle, so while not a complete healer, it's one hell of a lot better than it is right now

Apparently YOU are not getting it. The healing in that stance would still be tiny compared to the healer a dedicated healer job would put out. The healing would be awful. You want a tank that can also be a bad healer. NO THANKS! There is absolutely no need for a "stop gap healer tank".

As a DRK, I would very much like the option of my tank-bro being able to off-heal if one of the WHM/AST/SCLs go down. Leaves the other healer with time to actually rez instead of slowly getting withered down by mana management and/or failing to outheal a dps-heavy boss.

As a BLM, the idea of an OT that can heal and rez us fragile glass cannons fills my heart with wonder and joy.

It's completely unnecessary though. If people follow mechanics properly, healers/casters tend to not die. They don't need to add a healer stance to PLD because some people stood where they weren't supposed to AND died.



Fact is, this is a terribly unbalanced & unnecessary idea.

[Kosmos992k]

A lot to talk about but the 1st thing I want to address is what do you mean PLD's shield is gone? We still have our shield it's just that the amount we blocked by has been reduce yes but the reason for that it's allows room for improvement and growth.

I didn't say it was gone, I said that despite being core to our identity, the worth of the shield was slashed upon entry to Heavensward. Players who could block as much as 34% of damage with a successful block have been dropped to what amounts to a flat 20% block. That's a pretty hefty nerf and IMHO devalues the thing that is core to our identity/capability - the shield.

As for that Tank stance, I'm happy with the Shield and Sword Oath. I know Sword Oath doesn't offer much of a DPS increase but at least it is a increase suitable for PLD.

I'll argue that Sword Oath doesn't qualify as a stance until they change it. It's a no penalty passive buff to our Auto Attack. There is zero reason not to have it enabled by default, the only time a Paladin should not be in Sword Oath is when they are using Shield Oath, so why is Sword Oath something you have to actually turn on? It's a pointless extra button to press to return to your default state. It should be a trait, and when you enter Shield Oath the buff is disabled. In which case if we are to have a Sword Oath, make it worthwhile with a real DPS buff and balance that with a defensive debuff to reflect the greater focus on doing damage and lesser focus on defending ourselves. Sword Oath as it is is pretty well pointless as a separate stance.

PLD is based on being more about defense then Offence which is why I prefer to use PLD to tank King Thordan EX then my DRK. He's other skills help the party out more then my DRK would.

Certainly, which is why I like Shield Oath, a direct 20% defensive buff and a direct 20% debuff on our damage make it quite clear that we are being defensive. I almost would suggest making Sword Oath a 20% DPS buff with a direct 20% debuff of our defense, but I think a 20% DPS buff is excessive, and a 20% drop in our defense would be pretty damned significant. So I went with a much milder DPS buff and a debuff aimed at reducing the effectiveness of the shield while in Sword Oath, which logically speaking makes sense.

As for the cross class skills PLD isn't the only one with useless x-cross, it's just how the game is built but the most useless skills isn't from CNJ, oh no it's from MRD...skull sunder....

I don't know about that being the most useless, Raise is unusable, placing it on your hotbar is detrimental because it prevents you from adding skills that can actually be used. SkullS under may be pretty pointless compared to other skills, but you can at least use it. Since Raise cannot actually be used, it doesn't get put on hot bars and is almost literally by definition useless.

The healing in that stance would still be tiny compared to the healer a dedicated healer job would put out. The healing would be awful. You want a tank that can also be a bad healer. NO THANKS! There is absolutely no need for a "stop gap healer tank".

Of course the healing would pale in comparison with a real healer, the intention isn't to make PLD a real healer in it's healing stance, it's to make Paladin capable of using the CNJ cross skills it's been given. Right now they are like the appendix in a human being, a pointless vestigial organ that serves no purpose and occasionally becomes inflamed threatening a persons health, requiring surgery to remove it. If these cross class skills are to remain so useless, then how about a 'surgical solution' replacing them with cross class skills worth a damn.

As for there being no need, you must never have played a game where battles have close finishes, and wipes are avoided because someone with cross class healing manages to stave off a wipe by raising a real healer, or doing enough healing to provide a short break for the real healer to regain some MP, or raise someone else who's down. It's not about making Paladin a replacement for a healer, it's about giving Paladin the use of their cross class skills.

Yes, a Paladin's cure is very poor, that's why I suggested basing it off an average of MND and VIT, it boosts the strength of the heal without having to boost the potency of the skill, and also doesn't result in a Paladin casting Cure with the same strength as an equivalent level WHM. That avoids the pitfall of being a 'healer stealer' as someone suggested, but makes the cure more viable to use for a Paladin.

Think of it this way, battle field medics can patch someone up, maybe stabilize them, before real medical treatment is available. The suggested healing stance for Paladin allows the Paladin to function as an emergency medic in the field without putting them on par with real healers. We have the skills for this, they are simply unusable or completely inadequate right now. My idea seeks to change that.

It's completely unnecessary though. If people follow mechanics properly, healers/casters tend to not die. They don't need to add a healer stance to PLD because some people stood where they weren't supposed to AND died.

Why not? Only well disciplined teams execute mechanics like you suggest they should, and people routinely stand where they should not. Making the CNJ skills a PLD has actually useful and viable, allows the PLD to respond to those less than perfect situations and help out.

I should also note that the intention is not that the PLD as MT stance dances between Shield Oath and Oath of Solace and back to Sword Oath. I was thinking that this additional stance Oath of Solace would be something that the PLD could switch to while OTing if the need arose - which in PUG and non-static/premade groups actually does happen.

Fact is, this is a terribly unbalanced & unnecessary idea.

If it's a 'fact' then you won't mind demonstrating how it's unbalanced. Your opinion of whether it's unnecessary or not, is simply your opinion.

[Jonnycbad]

Pretty sure in FFXI PLD could Invincible+Raise. What difference would there be if FFXIV PLDs could HG+Raise? They could even adjust it such that Raise when cast from CC consumes all of your MP, or has a 1min recast or some such(since it was a 60 recast in FFXI)

[Bravely_Default]

Making sword oath a 20% buff to all damage and a -20% debuff to defenses is actually more of a nerf... Sword oath is an additional 50 potency to auto attacks which leads to about a 14% increase to your overall damage, an additional 6% at the expense of 20% more damage taken would actually lead to a DPS loss due to how much more healers would have to focus on healing you.

[Kosmos992k]

Making sword oath a 20% buff to all damage and a -20% debuff to defenses is actually more of a nerf... Sword oath is an additional 50 potency to auto attacks which leads to about a 14% increase to your overall damage, an additional 6% at the expense of 20% more damage taken would actually lead to a DPS loss due to how much more healers would have to focus on healing you.

I didn't say do away with the Auto Attack potency increase....

[Reynhart]

The healing in that stance would still be tiny compared to the healer a dedicated healer job would put out. The healing would be awful. You want a tank that can also be a bad healer.

Actually, no. The healing should not be "tiny compared to the healer".
It should be as high as WAR's DPS is compared to real DPS, but far more limited.
No AoE heal, no HoT, no instant or free heal thanks to procs, no barrier, no spamming, no instant Raise, no status removal, etc...
All things that wouldn't make healers irrelevant while greatly increasing PLD's utility is new party setup.

[Ralvenom]

Actually, no. The healing should not be "tiny compared to the healer".
It should be as high as WAR's DPS is compared to real DPS, but far more limited.

Even if that's the ratio...You're missing 1 thing. THERE'S NO NEED FOR THAT. A WAR's dps helps the party and plays into the idea of WAR's class design. A PLD doing healing would just act as a crutch. Crutches are bad. Furthermore, the idea of making PLD into a "hybrid class" essentially means they would have to balance it somehow. That sure sounds fun. NOT.

It also doesn't really play into PLD's class design; people have this idea that PLD are "holy knights". Well, guess what?! NOT IN FFXIV...you know, if the class quests didn't tell you that...

[Bravely_Default]

Sorry, the way you worded it made it appear otherwise. Using the words direct 3 times made it seem like those points you put was all there was to it.