Taking a look at PLD and what could be a quick(er) fix.

[Malicewolf]

Let me start off by saying, I love my Paladin and playing it. But it's so obvious why there are so many complaints. I won't stop playing my Paladin, but I can see it's biggest flaws as well.

So I couldn't help but wonder. What is it that REALLY makes Paladin's fall behind the other tanks? There's the usual argument of less DPS, but then what really makes the other tanks better?

Each tank has their enmity increasing/defense buffing tank stance:
Warrior: Defiance learned at lvl 30
Increases maximum HP by 25%, while lowering damage dealt by 25% and increasing enmity. Increases HP recovery via curing magic by 20% for self. Also increases chance to hit by 5%.

Dark Knight: Grit learned at lvl 30
Reduces damage received by 20%, while lowering damage dealt by 20% and increasing enmity. Also increases chance to hit by 5%.

Paladin: Shield Oath learned at lvl 40
Reduces damage received by 20% and increases enmity, while lowering damage dealt by 20%. Increases accuracy by 5%.

So first off, the other tanks get their increased enmity and damage reduction tank stance at level 30 while Paladin's get it at 40... However, Paladin's get their offensive ability at lvl 30 while Warrior's have to reach lvl 52 after entering heavensward content. But even without the warrior's offensive tank stance, they still can produce more damage than a Paladin. You'd think that maybe they'd at LEAST give Paladin's (who are supposed to be damage soakers) more DEFENSE at the very least in their tank stance.

Now for the offensive tank stances:
Warrior: Deliverance at lvl 52
Increases damage dealt by 5%. Effect ends upon reuse.
Using certain actions while under the effect of Deliverance will grant Abandon. Each unit of Abandon increases critical hit rate by 2%. When five units are stacked, you will become Uncontrollable.

Dark Knight: Dark side at lvl 30
MP is slowly drained while increasing damage dealt by 15%. MP refreshing statuses have no effect.

Paladin: Sword Oath at lvl 30
Increases the potency of auto-attacks by 50.

Although the warrior has to wait until heavensward content and it's a lvl 52 (22 lvls higher than the other 2), their offense is already pretty decent and this is a decent little boost to add on. The dark knight get's a whooping 15% increase at the cost of draining their MP. Honestly, sounds fair. Then we get Paladin. Increases auto attack potency by 50. Better call the ambulance's now folks... Come on SE. Not even gonna give us Paladin's an overall attack % buff like the other 2 tank classes? If this increased our auto attack's speed rate significantly as well, I wouldn't mind, but it's just a simple add on to the current auto-attack. Yes, every bit of extra damage helps, but come on.

Now aside from the stances that are very against Paladin's already, if we take a look at our enmity producing attacks, we can also see a significant difference. I'm not going to list everything here, but let me point out one of the big ones (imo). Every tank class's bread and butter for gathering up quick mob enmity is their aoe's.

MDR/WAR
Overpower: Delivers an attack with a potency of 120 to all enemies in a cone in front of you. Additional Effect: Increased enmity.
Level: 12
CD: 2.5 sec on GCD
TP cost: 120

Steel Cyclone: Delivers an attack with a potency of 200 to all nearby enemies. Ignores the 25% damage penalty inflicted by Defiance. Can only be executed when Infuriated. All Wrath is lost when used.
Level: 45
Additional Effect: Increased enmity
CD: 2.5 sec (but requires full infuriate)
TP cost: 0


Dark Knight
Unleash: Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 100 to all nearby enemies.
Level: 8
Additional Effect: Increased enmity.
CD: 2.5 sec
MP cost: 9-796 (lvl dependent)


GLD/PLD
Flash: Increases enmity in all nearby enemies.
Level: 8
CD: 2.5 sec
MP cost: 8-707 (lvl dependent)

Circle of Scorn: Delivers an attack with a potency of 100 to all nearby enemies.
Level: 50
Additional Effect: Increased enmity
Damage over time for 15s, Potency: 30 (combined total potency of 250 per target).
CD: 25 sec
TP cost: 0

Now at first glance, these seem pretty decently spread out. Warrior and Paladin's both get 2 and Dark Knight has 1. All have an AoE that does damage. However, this is actually quite deceptive.
Warrior get's 2 attacks located on their GCD of 2.5 sec that both do AoE damage (and both fairly potent).
Dark knight get's 1 attack on their GCD of 2.5 sec that does avg damage.
Paladin get's 1 non-damaging move on the GCD of 2.5 sec. Circle of Scorn can only be used ONCE every 25 seconds. Sure, it does a good combined potency of 250 when you add in the DoT, but do you know what this means? It means that for Paladin's to hold enmity on a group, they have to give up damage. They could use circle of scorn right off the bat, sure, but tell me, how many Warrior's and Dark knights do you see that use only 1 overpower or 1 unleash to grab a large mob's attention. Heck, how many times do you see a Paladin only use 1 flash? And god forbid we enter a dungeon under level 50 with a PLD. We lose our AoE damage to keep aggro.

Now, to make matter's even worse, flash is a cross class skill for ALL of the tanks. Paladin's can use it. Warriors can use it. Dark Knights can use it. Everyone can use it (though it's questionable whether or not Warrior's should even bother with it. It's a decent back up incase you run out of TP, but most learn to manage TP better as they progress).

But Paladin's have provoke! Oh wait. That's also a cross class skill that EVERY tank can use. Well, I'm sure that Paladin's cross skills are very useful... Let's see:
Foresight - Foresight sounds great. Basically get another Rampart. Cool. Extra 20% dmg reduction for 20 seconds.
Skull Sunder - sure, why not add in another move that provides no benefit to the class whatsoever as it's part of the GCD and doesn't have the ability to combo (sarcasm).
Fracture - DoT. Ok, not bad.
Bloodbath - Hey, you get hp back! Not as great as a WAR who can hit a bunch of enemies at once, but w/e! It's health!
Mercy Stroke - if I can time the kill just right, I can get 20% hp back! Oh boy! That won't be hard when there's a party of 8 slamming away at things!
Cure - Hey, healing! Paladin's are supposed to be support healers, right?! What?! 200-250 hp per heal? That's at a low level right? Oh. Level 60 huh? Well, what if you stack all your attributes into mind? Oh, 1 mind basically gives +1hp heal since PLD's get no magic weapons and there's almost no decent gear for Paladin's to increase mind... Seems great.
Protect - Hey! That's useful! Who doesn't like more defense! Oh. You almost never get to use it in any party because it has a healer who does. Well, at least you can use it if you ever want to!
Raise - Woah. Raise?! That's awesome! You can raise people during fights who drop!! Oh. You're not allowed to raise people in battles unless you have a trait to allow you... Then when do you use it? Oh. After the battle. That seems nice...
Stoneskin - Sweet! Stoneskin is amazing! And it actually is awesome! Now, what other sweet cross class skills do PLD's have? Oh. There's no more?

Well, you got Stoneskin and Foresight that are awesome... um. Bloodbath doesn't hurt. Can you deal a good amount of high damage or constant quick damage? Oh. Well, like I said, doesn't hurt to get more hp. Uh, Mercy stroke can give you a good chunk of hp back... if you time things right. Uh, and last.... uh. Why not fracture? Because. DoT. There. 5 aweso... well... extra skills.

Well, heck, I mean, I'm sure Warrior's don't get anything good either, right?!
Wait, what. They can use all good skills from pugilists?
Featherfoot - Dodging is increased. That's nice.
Second Wind - Wait, they get a move that heals at 450 potency based on Strength?! But Warriors are all about strength! I mean, the rest have to be sucky!
Haymaker - That can only be used when you dodge an attack! It's like PLD shield swipe! That sounds like it could be great in combination with featherfoot. But I'm sure it's on the GCD, right? Oh, it's not. Well.... that's actually pretty sweet. And it slows target's down. Damn.
Internal Release - That only increases critical hits. I mean, who even care's about doing more damage. psh.
Mantra - That only helps with HP recovery. What would a tank need with that?! psh. Oh. And it also effects party members within 25y. Oh. That's pretty sweet. Well, the other cross skills probably suck! Oh. They're yours from Gladiator. Ouch. Uh, I mean, they didn't get that much better stuff than you (._.)'

I'm sure Dark Knights cross skills suck then! Oh... they just gave them all the tank cross skills. Well... PLD's sure sound like something!

------------------
Ok, I'm done being sarcastic now. Big question on everyone's mind. How to fix these issues. Balance seems off. Changes were recently made to PLD's but they really didn't add that much. Shield swipe was the biggest effect that came and, well, that helped a little bit, but not in the whole. It allowed for PLD's to deal a bit more damage and an extra move off the GCD to help with enmity. The biggest problem though is, you are dependent on waiting for a block. Our stun move (shield bash) is still on the GCD, meaning we can't use it whenever we need and we have to interrupt our combo's to stop attacks on time otherwise unless we got lucky with the timing.

I know that we won't get any additional cross class skills. It's too late to add that. I understand the dev's probably won't go that route. We could add on new moves to try to balance things out, but then everyone will cry for more moves. I wouldn't mind it, but I have a feeling it's just not coming unless they raise the level cap again (but hey, maybe).

So instead, why not fix this through new gear? We introduce new gear every patch anyways. Heck, it probably wouldn't be too hard to alter some pre-existing gear either! Why not bring back what it means to be a Paladin in most games. They are supposed to be heavily armored knights with both armor and healing magic at their disposal. They were supposed to be both tank and support. If a Paladin could pull off an 1200+ hp heal, then they'd be useful. Heck, even an 800 would at least be decent for stalling (in terms of lvl 50 sync dungeon content). Give paladin the ability to raise people in battle. I don't care if you make it a lvl 60 trait for them. But doing this would make Paladin's a VALUABLE asset worth losing some DPS over. A Paladin that could actually sustain themselves a bit incase the healer goes down or just to give a healer breathing room to heal other's from a large AoE attack from a boss.

Sorry for the long post.

TL;DR
Instead of trying to make PLD match up to the other tank classes in DPS, why not give them their own individuality that makes them an asset. Give them gear that boosts mind and piety more and choices for magic based sword weapons (so all the healing potency isn't lost). Give them the ability to raise in battle to actually be an asset to the team in a dungeon that matches their title. We gave PLD's cure and raise, but they are so useless because we have no gear to allow them to take advantage. They are instead, wasted slots in the cross classing.

[Jpec07]

I would be all for this. Paladins don't really have anything in the way of class identity right now, which is why the balance sucks and the job just feels boring and mundane.

I will say that you forgot a few things. 50-60, DRK gets a bunch more AoE, some of which make them more potent AoE tanks than anyone else. At least in my experience, DRK has more control in a level 60 dungeon than a PLD or a WAR.

What they gave to PLD during that gap? Sheltron blocks the next hit, which really only means anything if you're using a scutum--and it's a physical attack. We get a DoT, we get a better DPS button, and...then two abilities that would be cool if they weren't so damn hard to use right.

Clemency and Divine Veil. Two ways that PLD support can be amazing. Especially if offtanking and not interrupted frequently, Clemency can save a group from wiping. It has 1200 potency (1800 total when used on a party member, because half of it comes back to you), scaling with Strength and Det, which can translate to 7-8k. Now if only it were easier to use while tanking, we'd be onto something.

But very good points, OP. I like your spark.

[Malicewolf]

Thanks for the info. DRK is the one tank I haven't played yet, so I don't know all that much detail on it. But that only makes the gap bigger along with my point xD

I like that the PLD gets a lot of mitigation, but we have no real niche right now. Taking lots of dmg is something ALL the tanks do. And for the most part, they STILL get just about as many CD's as PLD's. I'm still trying to get Cover to be useful xD. Awesome move, but very hard to get right.

[alimdia]

If a Paladin could pull off an 1200+ hp heal,

wait a second... DO YOU EVEN PLAY PLD? my pld heals for 7-8k.

Drks have 2 aoes, but they're really similar.
sword oath increases your dps by like 15-25% compared to no oath just because of the auto attack potency increase. 15-25% compared to 5% and 15%

featherfoot sucks
haymaker sucks
no space for mantra

You said pld sucks at aoe. And thats why in A2S, pld usually gets 1-2 mobs while war/drk gets the rest. Playing to your strengths yo.

[Copenhagen]

Foresight - Foresight sounds great. Basically get another Rampart. Cool. Extra 20% dmg reduction for 20 seconds.

Foresight is a 20% increase in defense, not 20% reduction in damage. It's more like a 6-8% damage reduction in practice.

[Faeon]

Interesting post, one of many. But!

As much as I would like to see changes for the PLD, we going to hear the same old stuff from Yoshi-P nothing wrong, and the content does not suit the job as of this time. If we make a change how does that change fit into the story of the PLD, blablabla.

[Yonanja]

Don't forget that DRK can use their offensive and defensive "stance" at the same time as well, making that 20% decreased damage into 5% instead. Mp is really a non-issue since you both got a CD for that, and will be using your "get mana back" skill as part of selfhealing and -int combos.

Also, why is the PLD DoT skill the only one hidden behind a combo?

@alimdia: I think he ment the normal cross-class cure, not clemency. Clemency is so situational that it's pretty much useless, not to mention that it costs too much resources (time/mp) for what it does to really be worth it.

[Faeon]

SNIP

I said it before, but I feel the PLD was not polished in heavenswards, they just took glue, and stuck pieces together, and hoped that since it was such a stable tank in 2.X that it would just be same, and put no effort or thought into the JOB as we know it now, and the end result is how you see it now.

[Jandor]

Taking a look at PLD and what could be a quick(er) fix.

Divine Veil just working, no heal required.
Changing oaths doesn't break combo, GCD and MP cost should be kept though.
Cover and Sheltron working on magic damage would be great.
Fight or Flight could maybe do with lasting a bit longer to help with MT DPS, offset shield oats penalty a bit.
Battle raise would be very nice.

That should do it, right?

[Ashelia_Ferron]

Oh the misinformation.

First, you're underestimating Sword Oath. Auto attacks make up a large portion of total DPS. That extra potency is huge. The fact that PLD OT DPS is damn close to the other tanks shows that.
You're forgetting that PLD has Fight or Flight, 30% increase for 30 seconds every 90 seconds.
You also don't know much about the cross class skills too.

Foresight only increases Physical Defense by 20%. Not 20% damage reduction. And only physical.
Haymaker is GCD, which makes it a DPS loss (and realistically you don't Dodge all that often anyway)
Mantra only has a radius of 7y. Not 25. Only 5% increase too.
No one realistically uses Featherfoot as a cross class, the utility is pitiful.

Everyone takes Provoke, IR, Convalescence.
Then it's usually Second Wind and Awareness.

The current problem is MT DPS. And lack of utility when OT