Taking a look at PLD and what could be a quick(er) fix.

[Malicewolf]

wait a second... DO YOU EVEN PLAY PLD? my pld heals for 7-8k.

Drks have 2 aoes, but they're really similar.
sword oath increases your dps by like 15-25% compared to no oath just because of the auto attack potency increase. 15-25% compared to 5% and 15%

featherfoot sucks
haymaker sucks
no space for mantra

You said pld sucks at aoe. And thats why in A2S, pld usually gets 1-2 mobs while war/drk gets the rest. Playing to your strengths yo.

If you are referring to Clemency, then yes, you can do 1 good heal for a majority of your mp. But as Yonanja stated, I was referring to the cross class cure. How often do you need to heal 6-8k hp heal on someone else? It's a good last ditch save effort, much like hallowed ground. But not something you use (or even can use) frequently. But either way, cure wasn't so much the selling point I was going for. Just one of those, "why do we have this" kind of things. If I have it, why not allow me to utilize it?

As for featherfoot and haymaker sucking... sure. We can also say Protect sucks as well. Why bother? But yes, for a WAR, they aren't the best (because they have a good pick of options for cross class available to them). But for a PLD, I'd welcome any moves off GCD. Even our stun is connected to our GCD. And slow is a nice added perk. I doubt you also think shield swipe sucks, especially after the patch.

And yes, I do say PLD aren't great at AoE and not every dungeon has 8 players. While DRK and WAR have no issues dishing out AoE for both dmg and enmity, PLD's are left with flashing and hoping the overgeared DRG in an lvl 30 dungeon doesn't pull the aggro too quickly. If I'm just fighting for enmity on a boss fight, I can very often beat out a WAR and even a DRK at times, but in a mob, there's a clear disadvantage. Especially if it's not level sync'd at lvl 50 (as we lose circle of scorn).

And for Sword Oath, yes the dmg increase is great for long boss fights. You can really see the difference when the fight drags on, but those attacks do NOT do high damage by any means. The attack stances for WAR and DRK are % on top of ALL their move sets. Allowing them to deal out a couple thousand of dmg in a single move, let alone multiple. But hey, I am putting in a steady stream of 150-250 auto attack hits. Fear me Odin. Fear me.

For those who perfect the stance dances, sure, you can offset most disadvantages. Doesn't mean they aren't still disadvantages. And just to put it out there, I'm not trying to argue with you for argument's sake. I LOVE being a PLD regardless of these things. But I notice these things. In my FC the WAR and I are constantly trying to rival each other (but we do work well together, we just like to challenge one another). I find that I often have to have better gear and a higher level to keep up with the WAR. The DRK in our team is lower lvl however, so when he catches up, I'll see how they compare in depth at that time. I'm only going off observation of other DRK's atm. The WAR and I talk nearly daily on skype calls comparing. Point being, I do know how to use PLD efficiently. But I'm simply trying to point some things out that I noticed when comparing myself to the other tanks and why I seem to have a harder time. Honestly, when I'm in a low lvl sync'd dungeon with a bunch of ilvl200 geared DPS and healer and still able to hold the aggro of the mobs with my PLD, I'm happy. I know that I can at least do my job right (not to say I don't make mistakes...)

Foresight is a 20% increase in defense, not 20% reduction in damage. It's more like a 6-8% damage reduction in practice.

Thanks on the correction. That was an oversight on my part. But it's still dmg mitigation and that's always helpful. Especially when looking at our other options aside from Stoneskin.

Divine Veil just working, no heal required.
Changing oaths doesn't break combo, GCD and MP cost should be kept though.
Cover and Sheltron working on magic damage would be great.
Fight or Flight could maybe do with lasting a bit longer to help with MT DPS, offset shield oats penalty a bit.
Battle raise would be very nice.

That should do it, right?

And yea, that would do it too :P Those would all be welcomed changes, but we've been asking for these things for a while now. So I simply put up an idea that was at least heading towards PLD's trying to be different and useful rather than trying to catch up to the DRK or WAR in DPS.

Oh the misinformation.

First, you're underestimating Sword Oath. Auto attacks make up a large portion of total DPS. That extra potency is huge. The fact that PLD OT DPS is damn close to the other tanks shows that.
You're forgetting that PLD has Fight or Flight, 30% increase for 30 seconds every 90 seconds.
You also don't know much about the cross class skills too.

Foresight only increases Physical Defense by 20%. Not 20% damage reduction. And only physical.
Haymaker is GCD, which makes it a DPS loss (and realistically you don't Dodge all that often anyway)
Mantra only has a radius of 7y. Not 25. Only 5% increase too.
No one realistically uses Featherfoot as a cross class, the utility is pitiful.

Everyone takes Provoke, IR, Convalescence.
Then it's usually Second Wind and Awareness.

The current problem is MT DPS. And lack of utility when OT

Were these changes from 3.1 patch? I use haymaker with my lower lvl ninja and it does not interrupt any GCD's. But I've yet to play it since the patch.
Mantra, my bad. I do not have a high level Monk. I simply went off of what's stated on the wiki (which already has the updated 3.1 changes... so I assumed they gave the correct info there).

As an OT, yes, PLD can deal good DPS via auto attack boost. I've noticed the usefulness myself using it whenever I can. But even with that, most will pass on a PLD OT using sword oath. Why is that?

And you say everyone takes Provoke and Covalescense. Yes. You are right. But that's part of our class and now everyone has it. We have no identity on that aspect. They are simply "necessary tank actions". Our bread and butter tank moves are out there for everyone to take. Awareness used with raw intuition on a WAR is a very good combo. 75% of the time you are supposed to be vulnerable, you end up covering yourself with this move.

And as I said, the moves aren't necessarily the highest priority picks. The point I was trying to make was that they CAN be utilized well. Especially in comparison to the PLD cross class skills. I have not run into many parties that decide we don't need any healer's and can afford to wait until AFTER every battle for a raise. Protect itself is a great move. But nearly every healer has it. Stoneskin is great, but nearly every healer has it. Cure is great, just not in the hands of a PLD or any non-healing class. Raise is great, if it can be utilized when it's needed (during the battle). That's HALF of our cross class skills right there that really don't have huge utility. Stoneskin's saving grace is that you can focus on putting it on to conserve a small amount of time and mp for your healer's during battle. Especially as an offtank in a boss fight. This is the point I'm trying to make. We lose so much utility because we CAN'T make use of the cross class skills given to us.

[LeeraSorlan]

Plds only major issue is dps. As long as content requires high dps, pld will always be unfavorable.Even on content with no dps checks ppl dont want pld. Killing things faster will always be the option people take.


If a pld got more support it would do NOTHING unless that support was a dps boost to other classes.


Because every tank can tank and survive, but not every tank can be high dps. Adding cure to pld does nothing because its only helpful if healers mess up.


As it stands, nothing will help pld but higher dps.


Who wants better mitigation on pld, when the lesser mitigation of war can survive too AND do 300+ more dps?

[LeeraSorlan]

that being said, i love playing paladin and i dont care at all how its dps is bad, i like the style of it so i play it regardless of it doing much lower dps than my war and i still prefer to MT as a pld than to MT as a war

[Malicewolf]

that being said, i love playing paladin and i dont care at all how its dps is bad, i like the style of it so i play it regardless of it doing much lower dps than my war and i still prefer to MT as a pld than to MT as a war

Just putting this out there. The cure part is more so an additional aspect that could help identify a PLD as it's own tank style. But would you turn down a PLD who could raise for an extra 300 DPS? Personally, I would not (because we all know just how great duty finder can be). I can't tell you how many times I'm the last one standing in a boss fight (because, you know, high defense and high hp) and I wish more than anything I could just pop a raise on one of the healers. I could just Hallow Ground and raise.

[Jandor]

And yea, that would do it too :P Those would all be welcomed changes, but we've been asking for these things for a while now.

They do seem like pretty obvious changes, I've seen all of them in some form or another thrown out there at least once.
Some of them could have unforeseen consequences but I was honestly expecting divine veil to have been altered by now at least.

Who wants better mitigation on pld, when the lesser mitigation of war can survive too AND do 300+ more dps?

Well, hypothetically if PLD mitigation and support was really amazing you could probably ditch the 2nd healer for another proper DPS for a bigger boost to the parties numbers.

[KingOfAbyss]

Don't forget that DRK can use their offensive and defensive "stance" at the same time as well, making that 20% decreased damage into 5% instead. Mp is really a non-issue since you both got a CD for that, and will be using your "get mana back" skill as part of selfhealing and -int combos.

Also, why is the PLD DoT skill the only one hidden behind a combo?

@alimdia: I think he ment the normal cross-class cure, not clemency. Clemency is so situational that it's pretty much useless, not to mention that it costs too much resources (time/mp) for what it does to really be worth it.

Did Neverreap with my GF WHM (her first time) we were with 2 DRG. Last boss, she died. we tried to kill it without her but couldn't. So, second try at it: she died again (not paying attention to tornados).

Only me and the highest-geared DRG up, his HP is going down because of the adds wind gale? anyway.. I used Clemency, my HG was still not up (I used it on the first time we failed) I used Riot Blade, then used clemency again on him.. He used LB 2.. we won!

Yes Clemency is situational. But using all the tools at your disposal and win, I'm happy.

Now Shield Swipe is nice. They should remove the cooldown if they insist on having it proc when you block, but I used Bulwark and it's good.

More TP than before, but I still get down to 0.. so something's still off..

^ Edit: I mean that even if they lowered the cost of some skills, it doesn't feel like there's any change..

DPS-wise, not close enough, needs a boost, or stopping making boss with DPS Checks.

[Malicewolf]

Snip

Honestly though, that is a perfect Clemency situation to use the move. Very nicely done that you were able to pull off twice. Did you just have to wail away for a while using riot blade or do you just have that much mp (or perhaps some stats in piety?) xD

[Alphras]

More TP than before, but I still get down to 0.. so something's still off..

You should get down to 0. TP is not a limitless resource. WAR(OT) is what is off here.

[KingOfAbyss]

Honestly though, that is a perfect Clemency situation to use the move. Very nicely done that you were able to pull off twice. Did you just have to wail away for a while using riot blade or do you just have that much mp (or perhaps some stats in piety?) xD

Thank you ^^

And nope, no stats in Piety I'm at the moment iLvl 172 with 187 PIE, Healing Magic Potency 221, didn't use food that time (should've)

So it was pretty intense as my own HP was getting very low as well, since no healers hehehe

(now that I think of it, I forgot to use a pot >.< stress to get it done I guess lol )

And @Alphras: I know too well TP is scarce ^^

Maybe they'll make a PLD skill to replenish it when no NIN or BRD is around.. lvl 80 ^^

[Arannon]

I think thats part of the problem though...

It WAS a perfect situation for Clemency...but why is it we're the only tank class that has to wait on "perfect situations" for many of our abilities to be useful?

I mean, when is "dealing damage" situational? The only time I can think of is not pushing phases too quickly, but even that can be gotten used to....

Divine Veil, Clemency, Cover, Tempered will, they're all so situational...they're useful during perfect circumstances and the rest of the time its just kinda there, and maybe you use it, and maybe its useful, but most of the time its really purely for those "perfect situations" that they matter.