Suggestion about Cleric Stance

[Mibgestalt]

So don't dodge the bullet too: why keep CS as a Conjurer skill instead of adding it to general actions and replace it on the Conjurer's toolset with a much needed utility skill?

I mean... what are you expecting to happen? They remove CS and make this change. They put in a new utility skill. It's cross-class so AST and SCH have access to it too. Every encounter is now designed with the expectation of two of this utility skill available to each raid. It's still a button to press, so it doesn't reduce "bloat" at all. It makes WHM a bit better in 4-mans, which I don't think anyone REALLY needs.

And if you expect it to not be cross-class... do you really think Square balances and designs classes in a vacuum? Of course not, cross-class skills are taken into account. That's why the argument that WHM has no "disable equivalent" is pretty dishonest, because you have access to E4E, even if it's not a WHM skill.

So I don't get what possible argument there is for removing Cleric Stance besides "I don't like it", "I want WHM to have a new button that increases WHM's strength relative to other healers", or "I am not good enough to use CS correctly".

You're entitled to number 1, totally. But you have to understand it is not a good basis to make changes on.

[Fevelle]

...

Limit Breaks are general actions, not usable by crafter. Materia Melding are general actions not usable by fighter classes. Why can't be CS a general action usable by healers?

Yes, WHM do not need any changes for the sake of potency because we have it all, but we do need a change to gameplay. AST is too close to us and with the addition of a new healer class, WHM will probably become a extremely generic class, more than we are already.

EDIT BECAUSE I CANNOT POST ANYMORE:

Now you're just being particularly stubborn and limited for the sake of being argumentative and it's becoming quite asinine. I was entertaining your rhetoric for a bit to see if you would at least change your tone but I would guess not. Our discussion is quite over now.

If you think it's ok to have CS taking up space of a class toolset given that:

- It's a pre-requisite for every healer.
- The new healer job at 4.0 will probably be a starter class.
- WHM currently lacks gameplay identity, becoming a total generic class.

It's ok. I never wanted to make anyone have anything "down their throats" but don't think I'll ever be ok with the current situation the whole healing jobs are in. But let's wait, removing accuracy from equips was already a step.

About my tone: it's the most polite possible. I was only rude two times in this topic because the people in question put my playstyle into check in rude manners too. I even overlooked some unargumentative "git gud" posts, so I don't know what you mean by "change your tone". If you mean "change your mind" and be "less assertive" by that, no, I'm not changing anytime soon, not until I feel like I'm playing a FF and not some generic MMORPG. I'll take my leave now too, since I don't have anything to add here.

[Ghishlain]

Limit Breaks are general actions, not usable by crafter. Materia Melding are general actions not usable by fighter classes. Why can't be CS a general action usable by healers?

Now you're just being particularly stubborn and limited for the sake of being argumentative and it's becoming quite asinine. I was entertaining your rhetoric for a bit to see if you would at least change your tone but I would guess not. Our discussion is quite over now.

As some words of advice - there's a subtle difference between encouraging posters to your cause and forcing it down their throat. If you want to enact a change to the healer DPS debate, the best place to start is to encourage S-E to make encounters that are more random. Part of the boon of Cleric Stance is the fact the game is heavily scripted so you can reliably know when you have the options to use Cleric Stance. Take that away from the game and the amount of opportunities a healer can activate Cleric will diminish. There are plenty of people who want to heal more, it's just a matter of encouraging S-E design into that route that isn't destructive or arbitrary.

[Blessedbythesun]

So explain me the lack of a Virus/Disable counterpart for WHM, outside of Cleric Stance taking up its place. This has nothing to do with casual playstyle. Why would an ability that is a pre-requisite for every healer be kept in one's toolset taking up space if every healer needs it?

For the same reason healers level THM for instant cast, Utility. The only difference is by default, as a SCH, you will have access to Cleric Stance simply because class it a requirement for SCH. It's already there from the jump so why not use it?

[Blessedbythesun]

Because, as a player who played every freaking game from this series, ~personally~ that's not what I rolled healer for. I didn't advocate for the end of Cleric Stance, I wanted a change in damage scaling to reflect healer's main stat, wich would free space on hotbars/crossclass slots. Just it. If you like to DPS, fine, I do not and I only do it because of the current meta.

I am confused. I thought the whole point of cleric stance was implicit to using MND by switching with INT because MND is our main stat. It just sounds like you don't like the penalty to healing.

Also, what cross class skill is more important than SCH and AST that is enough for you to use that as an excuse?

[Fevelle]

I am confused. I thought the whole point of cleric stance was implicit to using MND by switching with INT because MND is our main stat. It just sounds like you don't like the penalty to healing.

Also, what cross class skill is more important than SCH and AST that is enough for you to use that as an excuse?

OK, just forget it.This game is far from a FF for me anyways, I shouldn't even care if White Magic is supposed to scale with MND.

[Blessedbythesun]

OK, just forget it.This game is far from a FF for me anyways, I shouldn't even care if White Magic is supposed to scale with MND.

That is such a personal quip to use an assessment to this game. If that was the case, you should be raging on about other stuff, like how elemental damage plays no real factor in having an advantage or disadvantage in the game. How SMN job is terrible because the focus is on the SMN and not on the primal egi's, not to mention how horrible the egi's are in comparison to almost every summoned beast in previous final fantasy games. Hell, even FF13's departure from many of the series staples should show you that there's change.

But let's be frank, all healing magic scales by MND and the only DPS white magic WHM has in FFXIV is Holy, Repose not included. Everything else is elemental magic, black magic if you wanna go classic. WHM were only good at dealing damage against undead creatures by using cure on them or Dia, which obviously you can't even cast cure on mobs in this game because of potential trolling but also because Dia was ONLY useful against undead. The main reason, that I see, that we healers have DPS capabilities just from a gameplay aspect alone was because the devs wanted to streamline the solo player experience through the main story quests that had you going in completely alone, and would disadvantage healers not to have these abilities.

At the end of the day, you're comparison to previous FF incarnations is not the light you should be looking at FFXIV in. If you wanted them to choose to stick with the old way in an MMO format, then it seems you are wishing for FFXI-2. And let me tell you, FFXI system was very unfair to certain jobs because they were very niche and often handicapped players with a preference, such as my preference as playing SMN exclusively for much of my FFXI carreer, but being shoved into a WHM/Healing role but weaker than the real healers.

SE has made a valiant and good attempt at streamlining FFXIV for new players and keep a profit because their previous MMO really alienated new players to both the FF series and MMOs in general for years until Abyssea released.

[Maso-C]

I don't want to see Healer roles get dumbed-down. I like the theme of Healers sacrificing their healing output to increase DPS output. It feels so right to me. I like getting punished if I use Cleric Stance at a bad time.

Tanks do a similar thing sacrificing Damage Reduction for higher DPS output. Healers shouldn't get a free pass.

[Bhuni]

Assize would need to be nerfed if Cleric Stance was removed and everything scaled off MND considering how it works.
So really people are asking for WHM nerfs! It's a conspiracy!!!

[Rawrz]

If anything we should be adding accuracy to cleric stance not removing it D: thought of an idea a while back, when protect trait was removed and free medica was added for the funsies just for cnj. Really want accuracy too though...but with the new materia system we might have easier access now.

Conjurer's give all other classes their most interesting mechanic:
Cleric Stance. Its the Fairy equivalent to scholar and the Card equivalent to Astrologian.

Why not change the old Proshell trait into something Cleric stance related that REWARDS the healer side of a conjurer as well as its DPS side for dipping into cleric stance once in a while. It is a very low level skill trait, so it would be limited to what a Conjurer has already learned.

Skills below level 16:

The trait could be: Upon leaving Cleric Stance the next Cure cast will cost no MP or Upon leaving Cleric Stance the next Cure cast will have an increased potency. or dare I say Upon leaving Cleric Stance the next Cure will have no casting time. O-O This last one seems best, giving Cnj/Whm a mini Tetragramaton/Lustrate on the Global CD to jump back into healing with or to save for its duration.
Duration: 10 seconds.

These are the current traits:

Some people seem pretty dissatisfied with the "specialness" of White Mage. Some people don't really feel the new Medica trait. I just think that in all this is a Conjurer's most unique skill, that should get some treatment. :3