Suggestion about Cleric Stance

[Jxnibbles]

Since I main white mage all I generally have to do is Regen Med 2 cure 1 for a pull in fractal? What else do I even do after that I can sit their playing with my thumbs or be an actual support and help my tank by casting holy to stun lock. Blizzard 2 to force mobs to stay in place if my tank loses agro and use Dots to help dps. I mean sure if you are new to a dungeon and are not comfortable then yes I understand full healing only. But lets be realistic most of the healers that stance dance get bored being 25-40 ilvls above content and just wanna be helping in other ways. Heal, dps, mechanics.

[Fevelle]

Hmmm. So let's see: WHERE ON THIS TOPIC did you get the information that scaling magic damage from healers to MND and changing CS is supposed to make healers not DPS? It's the total contrary. CS only add a false skillcap (because yeah, it's SO HARD to press it before DPSing and after you're done with it), and take away one slot from WHM skillset.

And no, we're no better than a healer who just heal because we DPS. Doing something you're not required to don't make you any good, doing what you're required to with great results makes you good.
Personally, if you rolled a healer to "support the party" with damage, you must be new to Final Fantasy, because their primary skills are shields/buffs and even when it comes down to damage, all WHM spell scaled with MND (including Holy/Ultima/Dia).

...

I'm advocating for the change of damage scaling to MND and changing CS into something else. NOTHING HERE IS ABOUT NOT DPSING. You only wasted time writing this all when it has nothing to do with the central topic here.

[Ghishlain]

I'm advocating for the change of damage scaling to MND and changing CS into something else. NOTHING HERE IS ABOUT NOT DPSING. You only wasted time writing this all when it has nothing to do with the central topic here.

I've already said my piece about that. *Points to the front page*

And I already understand your point. You don't like Cleric Stance. You'd rather see it disappear entirely. See:

No, Cleric Stance is the most bloated skill in this game,

This is about bloating useless skills that only add "skillcap" and nothing more.

You want to change all attacks spells to be scaled with MND and removing Cleric Stance. This would still make me unhappy because I'm losing 10% additional damage.

It's also clear based on your tone in the previous posts (and other threads for that matter) is that you're adamantly against DPSing. This thread just happens to coincide with that sentiment because you're trying to force onto others that a healer should heal and only heal and only heal.

There's nothing interesting to healer DPS, it's just a downtime filler since most fights in the game are flawed doesn't require full-time healing.

How about you go ahead and y'know... change to Summoner?

Healers should be required to heal. SQEX should increase the healing necessity on all instances. If you rolled a healer to deal damage, you're the one who should git gud.

That last one is particular condescending as most people who roll healer understand what their primary role is. That's why I made a reply finally to your rhetoric on that particular post because your rhetoric was becoming terrible. You're entitled to your opinion, just don't be rude or disrespectful about. Yes, that means others shouldn't be rude or disrespectful either, but if you want to prove a point you have to maintain a morale high ground against your adversaries and argue on facts and logic - not passionate whims that make you sound entitled and childish. I only say this because logically speaking, your comment comparing Cleric Stance to the STR/VIT paradigm is... weak at best, on the first page. And it sort of shows you just trying to shout to get your point across as the thread devolves more and more.

Finally:

And no, we're no better than a healer who just heal because we DPS. Doing something you're not required to don't make you any good, doing what you're required to with great results makes you good.

Skill A is required for the position. Skill B is a nice bonus to have along.

If interviewee A has a 90% rating on skill A and interviewee B has a 90% rating on skill A and Skill B, who do you think will be hired?

Doing something we're not required to do with great results while doing something that we are required to with great results makes us better than just a person who only does what they are required to do with great results.

A healer who can DPS while maintaining party health is better than a healer who is only focused on maintaining party health. Does that mean a healer has the capability to DPS all the time? No, it doesn't. It just means they have the potential to do so when required. The vast majority of Healer's who use their DPS abilities understand and cherish their primary role. They also know they can achieve more.

Why discourage them from that? Give me one good reason why you want to discourage a healer from DPSing that isn't more than "because I don't want to DPS!"

[EDIT] Also, the reason "Because it's not my role" is also a bad reason because it just shows you're either too stubborn or lazy to contribute more to your group. See above regarding Skill A and B while hiring someone.

[Fevelle]

...

You're completely right, I'm adamant about healer DPS: it's not how things should be and it should be erased from group instances. It doesn't mean I don't DPS, even hating it, and that's why I'm thinking of letting go of healing altogether in this game.

The whole change I'm proposing doesn't discourage DPS, on the contrary, it encourages, so I don't see your point at all.

So again: outside of false "skillcap" it adds, what's the point of having Cleric Stance, bloating the WHM skillset and other healers crossclass slots, if in all previous games, healers damage would scale with MND, even powerful spells like Holy and Ultima (FFII)?

[Kabzy]

I think it's safe to say that some people will never learn.

Let us not waste our energy and rejoice in the fact that SE, even with some of their questionable decisions, will not pay attention to the minority here.

[Ghishlain]

So again: outside of false "skillcap" it adds, what's the point of having Cleric Stance, bloating the WHM skillset and other healers crossclass slots, if in all previous games, healers damage would scale with MND, even powerful spells like Holy and Ultima (FFII)?

The simple answer is - because that's what they chose to do. Despite everything, you can see all the references the dev team took from previous Final Fantasy's and morphed them to their vision. Examples include:

• Various weapons derived from the Final Fantasy series. Ragnarok was predominately a sword and they made it an Axe in this version of the game. Gambanteinn was a melee club for WHMs in XI and is now a BLM staff. etc. etc.
• Summoner pets (I think this one speaks for itself)
• All jobs in this game are derivatives of what they represent in prior games. WARs and DRKs were predominately made for high damage, WHM had access to limited DPS abilities (but what DPS abilities they had access to were very powerful), BRD was heavily support oriented in previous iterations, there was no such thing as a "tank" in previous Final Fantasies (though there are high defense classes), and the like.
• The Gold Saucer, Triple Triad, and Lord of Verminion are derivatives of their namesake from previous Square-Enix titles.

The list goes on and on but to put it simply - this is the direction the FFXIV Dev Team chose to do. You're allowed to disagree with their decision but in the end, we can't do anything but complain until they either change it due to popular demand or they tell everyone flatly "no".

I also disagree with your assessment that Cleric Stance provides a false skill ceiling as well. In lower tier dungeon content, it is fairly simple to go to and from Cleric Stance and not Cleric Stance like a pendulum.

However, in higher tier content, it's important for the healer to understand the nuances of the fight and determine when it is a good idea or not a good idea to activate Cleric Stance. Even fights like Alex normal can provide challenges to that. For example, you'll want to refrain from using Cleric heavily in the final phase of A4 due to the out going damage form Nisi + Orbs + Discoid, but there is time to slip in two DoTs or so after Discoid is resolved but before Nisi goes back out again. In contrast, A3 healing requirement is "light" despite how much damage is actually going out. Usually nothing a Medica II / Aspected Helios can fix from a WHM/AST respectively and therefore plenty of opportunities for DPSing.

The fact Cleric Stance exists and basically destroys one's ability to heal for 5 seconds encourages healer's to think ahead and find opportunities where they can continue to support the group via DPS. It cultivates foresight and mechanic understanding. The game as a whole is heavily scripted and Cleric Stance may begin to lose its appeal if the dev team decides to step away from that kind of scripting. Until then, make use of an ability that gives you the equivalent attack stat of any equal level DPS.

If you removed Cleric Stance and made all attack spells MND based, I would dislike the fact that I've now lost 10% attack damage due to removing Cleric Stance.

If you kept Cleric Stance and made all attack spells MND based, I think that would heavily encourage terrible play. Most healers would begin to think "let's just full time Cleric Stance and just heal at 80% capacity!" which would sadly be the case once you hit a certain gear level.

No, I would want to keep it as is - a skill that encourages healer's to give thought to the consequences of their actions. If they activate Cleric Stance at a wrong time, the party will pay for it. This is the risk and reward level I want when healing because I want to keep thinking ahead of the fight.

So, I've answered your question. Now it's your turn to answer mine.

What reason is there for a healer to not DPS aside from the following:

1. I don't want too
2. Because it's not my role too
3. I'm uncomfortable with the content at this time

The only valid reason in that is #3 and eventually a player will overcome that as they get familiar with the content. The other two just show selfishness and stubbornness and those are generally frowned upon traits.

[Ghishlain]

So, if the problem is the "skill layer" it adds, why not just transform it into a general action for all healers and substitute it with something else on WHM's toolkit?

There is no problem with the skill layer it adds. You're just making it a problem because you dislike it. You'll notice that there are quite a number of people who like the idea of switching from DPS mode to Healer mode and vice versa and don't see a problem with it.

Again, Cleric Stance cultivates foresight and attentiveness in a healer in higher tiers of content. Remove that and you remove a key fundamental to helping your party as a healer in FFXIV.

And again, I have to ask.

What reason is there for a healer to not DPS aside from the following:

1. I don't want too
2. Because it's not my role too
3. I'm uncomfortable with the content at this time

The only valid reason in that is #3 and eventually a player will overcome that as they get familiar with the content. The other two just show selfishness and stubbornness and those are generally frowned upon traits.

This is the third time I've asked some semblance of this to you. Either answer the question or say you don't know how to answer it because you don't. Stop dodging the bullet.

Your move.

[Jxnibbles]

If these abilities are changed to scaling off of mind. I just think back in pvp when 8 healers were a thing due to the damage they could deal and have no counter play. Also wouldn't schs be able to do more dmg and rarely have to heal like in scob/fcob since the 3.0 Lusterate was changed? What about white mage and assize with dps scaling off of mind they would get to heal the party for alot and have the assize do massive dps? There may be more scenarios but this is what comes to my mind. Please keep Cleric Stance.

[Fevelle]

If these abilities are changed to scaling off of mind. I just think back in pvp when 8 healers were a thing due to the damage they could deal and have no counter play. Also wouldn't schs be able to do more dmg and rarely have to heal like in scob/fcob since the 3.0 Lusterate was changed? What about white mage and assize with dps scaling off of mind they would get to heal the party for alot and have the assize do massive dps? There may be more scenarios but this is what comes to my mind. Please keep Cleric Stance.

That is why it would be a SYSTEM CHANGE, needing adjustments. Your counterargument is poor since these things could be easily avoided with some tweaking.

@AlphaSonic Also: layer of difficult? What's hard about toggling on and off? Cleric should be a Stance, not a swap of attributes. This skill is bloating for WHMs and is a waste of space on hotbar. Plus, every FF game had WHM scale with MND. Having an INT-based Holy is just wrong.

Boy, you never played with me and I probably DPS more as a healer than you ever will. So refrain from personal attacks and give me ARGUMENTS, not dumb "layer of difficult" excuses, because that's no reason to maintain a skill.

[Pomelo]

Boy, you never played with me and I probably DPS more as a healer than you ever will. So refrain from personal attacks and give me ARGUMENTS, not dumb "layer of difficult" excuses, because that's no reason to maintain a skill.

Kinda rude, and a personal attack too.....