Suggestion about Cleric Stance

[Fevelle]

Hmmm. So let's see: WHERE ON THIS TOPIC did you get the information that scaling magic damage from healers to MND and changing CS is supposed to make healers not DPS? It's the total contrary. CS only add a false skillcap (because yeah, it's SO HARD to press it before DPSing and after you're done with it), and take away one slot from WHM skillset.

And no, we're no better than a healer who just heal because we DPS. Doing something you're not required to don't make you any good, doing what you're required to with great results makes you good.
Personally, if you rolled a healer to "support the party" with damage, you must be new to Final Fantasy, because their primary skills are shields/buffs and even when it comes down to damage, all WHM spell scaled with MND (including Holy/Ultima/Dia).

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I'm advocating for the change of damage scaling to MND and changing CS into something else. NOTHING HERE IS ABOUT NOT DPSING. You only wasted time writing this all when it has nothing to do with the central topic here.

[Jxnibbles]

If these abilities are changed to scaling off of mind. I just think back in pvp when 8 healers were a thing due to the damage they could deal and have no counter play. Also wouldn't schs be able to do more dmg and rarely have to heal like in scob/fcob since the 3.0 Lusterate was changed? What about white mage and assize with dps scaling off of mind they would get to heal the party for alot and have the assize do massive dps? There may be more scenarios but this is what comes to my mind. Please keep Cleric Stance.

[AlphaSonic]

Sorry but not.

Cleric adds a layer of difficulty to healer jobs. If you don't want to DPS as a healer I don't have any problem at all. But don't dare removing cleric stance. You are just using cleric stance as an excuse to not DPS. If you turned on cleric stance because you thought you could DPS and the tank dies because of that. It's your entire fault, as a healer you need to know the fights, or at least, know when it's safe to turn on cleric to DPS. Don't dumb down healers job just because you can't even predict when it's time to DPS or not. It's the same as if a tank didn't save CD for tank bursters or DPS don't time correctly their buffs to DPS. It's your own fault, just because people fail when to DPS it's not a excuse to remove cleric stance.

[Fevelle]

If these abilities are changed to scaling off of mind. I just think back in pvp when 8 healers were a thing due to the damage they could deal and have no counter play. Also wouldn't schs be able to do more dmg and rarely have to heal like in scob/fcob since the 3.0 Lusterate was changed? What about white mage and assize with dps scaling off of mind they would get to heal the party for alot and have the assize do massive dps? There may be more scenarios but this is what comes to my mind. Please keep Cleric Stance.

That is why it would be a SYSTEM CHANGE, needing adjustments. Your counterargument is poor since these things could be easily avoided with some tweaking.

@AlphaSonic Also: layer of difficult? What's hard about toggling on and off? Cleric should be a Stance, not a swap of attributes. This skill is bloating for WHMs and is a waste of space on hotbar. Plus, every FF game had WHM scale with MND. Having an INT-based Holy is just wrong.

Boy, you never played with me and I probably DPS more as a healer than you ever will. So refrain from personal attacks and give me ARGUMENTS, not dumb "layer of difficult" excuses, because that's no reason to maintain a skill.

[Averax]

It would also allow them to cross class future healing jobs with things other than CNJ

[Pomelo]

Boy, you never played with me and I probably DPS more as a healer than you ever will. So refrain from personal attacks and give me ARGUMENTS, not dumb "layer of difficult" excuses, because that's no reason to maintain a skill.

Kinda rude, and a personal attack too.....

[Fevelle]

Kinda rude, and a personal attack too.....

Just the answer he deserved, honestly. I wasn't attacking anyone or making assumptions about his playstyle to begin with, he was. Still not relevant to the topic as he posted no argument outside of "layer of difficulty".

[Ghishlain]

I'm advocating for the change of damage scaling to MND and changing CS into something else. NOTHING HERE IS ABOUT NOT DPSING. You only wasted time writing this all when it has nothing to do with the central topic here.

I've already said my piece about that. *Points to the front page*

And I already understand your point. You don't like Cleric Stance. You'd rather see it disappear entirely. See:

No, Cleric Stance is the most bloated skill in this game,

This is about bloating useless skills that only add "skillcap" and nothing more.

You want to change all attacks spells to be scaled with MND and removing Cleric Stance. This would still make me unhappy because I'm losing 10% additional damage.

It's also clear based on your tone in the previous posts (and other threads for that matter) is that you're adamantly against DPSing. This thread just happens to coincide with that sentiment because you're trying to force onto others that a healer should heal and only heal and only heal.

There's nothing interesting to healer DPS, it's just a downtime filler since most fights in the game are flawed doesn't require full-time healing.

How about you go ahead and y'know... change to Summoner?

Healers should be required to heal. SQEX should increase the healing necessity on all instances. If you rolled a healer to deal damage, you're the one who should git gud.

That last one is particular condescending as most people who roll healer understand what their primary role is. That's why I made a reply finally to your rhetoric on that particular post because your rhetoric was becoming terrible. You're entitled to your opinion, just don't be rude or disrespectful about. Yes, that means others shouldn't be rude or disrespectful either, but if you want to prove a point you have to maintain a morale high ground against your adversaries and argue on facts and logic - not passionate whims that make you sound entitled and childish. I only say this because logically speaking, your comment comparing Cleric Stance to the STR/VIT paradigm is... weak at best, on the first page. And it sort of shows you just trying to shout to get your point across as the thread devolves more and more.

Finally:

And no, we're no better than a healer who just heal because we DPS. Doing something you're not required to don't make you any good, doing what you're required to with great results makes you good.

Skill A is required for the position. Skill B is a nice bonus to have along.

If interviewee A has a 90% rating on skill A and interviewee B has a 90% rating on skill A and Skill B, who do you think will be hired?

Doing something we're not required to do with great results while doing something that we are required to with great results makes us better than just a person who only does what they are required to do with great results.

A healer who can DPS while maintaining party health is better than a healer who is only focused on maintaining party health. Does that mean a healer has the capability to DPS all the time? No, it doesn't. It just means they have the potential to do so when required. The vast majority of Healer's who use their DPS abilities understand and cherish their primary role. They also know they can achieve more.

Why discourage them from that? Give me one good reason why you want to discourage a healer from DPSing that isn't more than "because I don't want to DPS!"

[EDIT] Also, the reason "Because it's not my role" is also a bad reason because it just shows you're either too stubborn or lazy to contribute more to your group. See above regarding Skill A and B while hiring someone.

[AlphaSonic]

Snip

Don't be so arrogant. I didn't quote you, don't think i'm talking to you, i'm talking to people in plural. Now i'm talking to you.

The fact that cleric stance turns your heals worthless for 5 seconds (Cooldown) means that you can't use it without thinking. You need to know when you can turn it on so you don't kill your tank because you use it in the worse possible moment. Moreover, the fact that it has that cooldown for turning it off means you can't use it whenever you want without thinking if every time i use i'm going to wipe the party.

[Fevelle]

...

You're completely right, I'm adamant about healer DPS: it's not how things should be and it should be erased from group instances. It doesn't mean I don't DPS, even hating it, and that's why I'm thinking of letting go of healing altogether in this game.

The whole change I'm proposing doesn't discourage DPS, on the contrary, it encourages, so I don't see your point at all.

So again: outside of false "skillcap" it adds, what's the point of having Cleric Stance, bloating the WHM skillset and other healers crossclass slots, if in all previous games, healers damage would scale with MND, even powerful spells like Holy and Ultima (FFII)?