Suggestion about Cleric Stance

[Anova]

I am wondering if this is just a group of players who don't want to get penalized as much for not using cleric stance.

Keep in mind Cleric stance came out in patch 1.20, when conjurers could still equip Fire, thunder, and other 1.0 abilities that scaled off INT or other attributes. So the arguments that this was a relic feature are valid, but I think the benefit of switching between dps and healing is something unique and only possible in FFXIV's thoughtful and more measured pace. You certainly couldn't do this in a game like Wildstar or Secret World where the combat speed is a lot faster.

So this is a hypothetical scenario and I'd like people to weigh in their thoughts on it. Does it ruin the game, make the game better, or something else?

In the next patch, SE decides to make MND contribute to healer damage and healing. They do not remove cleric stance, but instead keep the +10% damage and -20% healing buff. The only difference is that it doesn't switch INT and MND any more. The DPS in cleric stance doesn't change; the CD, animation, and everything else is the same. The only effect is that healers deal more damage outside of cleric stance.

It is a bit of a compromise. The result is that healers who don't use CS aren't crippled in to doing no damage with it and can do their damage rotation between heals. More experienced healers however will probably want the damage boost, even if it costs healing power, especially if they're pushing content and meeting dps checks.

Is it babying casuals? Would it make healers who use CS any less effective? Would it make players feel better learning to use DPS spells and rotations first without cleric stance so they can learn when to put cleric stance on? Would it make players feel more comfortable healing in cleric stance if they weren't crippled with the MND penalty (as easy as popping an emergency divine seal, rouse, or synastry to offset the heal penalty when a healer messes up)?

[Reinha]

Cleric stance locks you out of healing for 5 seconds. Using a damage skill locks you out for 2.5 seconds. The point of CS is to teach healers to anticipate the situation further than just one global cooldown, and that kind of evaluation skills will be beneficial in other aspects of healing too (anticipating the need for healing cd's for example). It pushes you to learn a basic healing skill/mentality before you can start working on optimizing your dps. The complexity CS adds is not in vain, and that's why I think CS, INT and MND should continue working the way they do for healers.

I understand it can feel scary or unnecessary for some to have to toggle CS all the time, but mastering it is going to make you a better healer in the end. There is another side to the matter as well. Is your team enabling you to stance dance comfortably by only taking predictable damage and by having enough HP? If not, they have some things to improve too. A healer's job is very dependent on the team members' performance. Spike damage and low gear should be everyone's concern, not just the healer's. I think those problems should be addressed in other ways than nerfing healer complexity.

[Supersun]

This seems pretty intentional on SE's part. In fact the removal of Cleric's Stance is unnecessary to remove the need for it to DPS, rather they would just have to release mage gear with both Mind and Int on it again. Yet, while gear used to have both Int and Mind on them now they only have one or the other so I can't help but feel they made this decision intentionally.

[Ghishlain]

So this is a hypothetical scenario and I'd like people to weigh in their thoughts on it. Does it ruin the game, make the game better, or something else?

It certainly makes the game better in my mind. The game as a whole is quite slow paced compared to other MMOs. We, as healers, have high impact heals in a game where outgoing damage is relatively low short of a few instances of "ERRRRRM, WOT?". Being able to freely move between using these high impact heals to contributing a fair amount of DPS makes the game more interesting for me to play.

In the next patch, SE decides to make MND contribute to healer damage and healing. They do not remove cleric stance, but instead keep the +10% damage and -20% healing buff. The only difference is that it doesn't switch INT and MND any more. The DPS in cleric stance doesn't change; the CD, animation, and everything else is the same. The only effect is that healers deal more damage outside of cleric stance.

It is a bit of a compromise. The result is that healers who don't use CS aren't crippled in to doing no damage with it and can do their damage rotation between heals. More experienced healers however will probably want the damage boost, even if it costs healing power, especially if they're pushing content and meeting dps checks.

Is it babying casuals? Would it make healers who use CS any less effective? Would it make players feel better learning to use DPS spells and rotations first without cleric stance so they can learn when to put cleric stance on? Would it make players feel more comfortable healing in cleric stance if they weren't crippled with the MND penalty (as easy as popping an emergency divine seal, rouse, or synastry to offset the heal penalty when a healer messes up)?

I wouldn't say its babying. I think the players who are adamant about not DPSing will not DPS even if this change was enacted. It feels like they're just using Cleric Stance as a scapegoat to prevent wanting to DPS because of the "it's too difficult to stance dance" argument. If you remove the necessity to Cleric Stance, the difference is you get to heal GCD --> DPS GCD --> heal GCD --> DPS GCD instead of heal GCD --> DPS GCD --> DPS GCD --> heal GCD. There isn't a big difference in the actual timing but I guess one could argue there's a bit less thought behind it too.

Regardless, in this scenario you presented, if one single GCD is going to wreck your group (and that can be possible), prepare for the big blow. If not, go DPS. It's similar to the current thought of "if group is gonna get wrecked in two GCDs", then don't activate Clerics and be prepared. Else DPS away.

In general, I hope S-E continues to let us have the option with healer DPS. If S-E wanted to remove healer DPS from the game, they would've found a way to disable Cleric Stance for any serious group content by now. If they wanted to force healer DPS into the game, they could force the DPS check so high that you will need the healer DPS on the majority of content (Savage is its own beast in this respect, but I have my own opinions about that). Since S-E has done neither of these, they're basically encouraging the option to DPS, not "you must" or "you mustn't".

[Fevelle]

Remove Cleric Stance?

Lv 60: 198 SCH chiming in here:

Hell no. Absolutely not. Do you KNOW how boring healing is without cleric stance? Have you done Fractal Continuum or Forever-reap without DPSing? You've lost your mind if you think removing that is a good idea.

How about you go ahead and y'know... git gud so Cleric Stance doesn't seem like an obstacle but more of a tool.

Good healers know how to work cleric stance, if you don't know it, you just need to practice learning your cooldowns and the cast length of your spells so you can optimize it.

How about you go ahead and y'know... change to Summoner?

Healers should be required to heal. SQEX should increase the healing necessity on all instances. If you rolled a healer to deal damage, you're the one who should git gud.

[Telsyr]

How about letting us cross-class some AST skills instead? Lightspeed for everyone perhaps? >_>

Only if we get Convert as compensation. (They're both job skills so why not!)

My one complaint with cleric is how finicky it can seem. I can't tell you how many times I'll hit it and due to some lag or who knows what it doesn't seem to turn off. So I hit it again and magically I pop out and right back in and get stuck waiting to be able to heal.

This, the only change Cleric Stance needs is when the cooldown is applied, the CD should be applied when the buff falls off instead of when its first used to compensate for lag.
Cleric Stance doesn't add complexity regardless of what people say, its a fun ability to have and should remain fun to have and use.

[Ghishlain]

How about you go ahead and y'know... change to Summoner?

Healers should be required to heal. SQEX should increase the healing necessity on all instances. If you rolled a healer to deal damage, you're the one who should git gud.

Or you could do both efficiently and effectively to bring a quicker end to the content you're rolling. Every player should endeavor to get better and excelling at DPS as a healer is one of the many different facets one can perform to show their confidence and comfort.

I rolled a healer to heal my party. If that healing includes me assisting in killing a monster faster because it will reduce my overall healing requirement, I will do it.

[Fevelle]

Or you could do both efficiently and effectively to bring a quicker end to the content you're rolling. Every player should endeavor to get better and excelling at DPS as a healer is one of the many different facets one can perform to show their confidence and comfort.

I rolled a healer to heal my party. If that healing includes me assisting in killing a monster faster because it will reduce my overall healing requirement, I will do it.

Assisting killing something is not healing. Your role isn't "Support", your role is "Healer". Let's stop trying to give excuses for a game where you can put a HoT on your tank and DPS, because that'a NOT healing at all.

EDIT BECAUSE I CAN'T POST (20 posts rule):

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Holy_(Ability)

It's almost like White Mages through out the entirety of final fantasy have been able to output strong, offensive magic-damage. If you have such a problem with healers doing damage in a final fantasy game, I'm not sure you're into final fantasy. Healers doing high amounts of damage is iconic in this franchise. Hell even WHM in XI had a stupid amount of blunt damage with Hexa Strike along with mystic boon granting them a near infinite mp pool. White Mages have always been powerful offensively so why would it be any different in FFXIV?

I never said I was against, I said that putting a HoT on a Tank and DPSing is flawed design. To be honest, the change I want would encourage Healer DPS and if it's to use previous FF as examples: all WHM attack spells scaled with MND, including Holy.

Can I just point out that even in the Conjurer storyline they stress that our role isn't only healing. SE literally could not have made it more obvious that healers are given offensive abilities for a reason.

SEE ABOVE ZZZZZZZ

[MidnightTundra]

Assisting killing something is not healing. Your role isn't "Support", your role is "Healer". Let's stop trying to give excuses for a game where you can put a HoT on your tank and DPS, because that'a NOT healing at all.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Holy_(Ability)

It's almost like White Mages through out the entirety of final fantasy have been able to output strong, offensive magic-damage. If you have such a problem with healers doing damage in a final fantasy game, I'm not sure you're into final fantasy. Healers doing high amounts of damage is iconic in this franchise. Hell even WHM in XI had a stupid amount of blunt damage with Hexa Strike along with mystic boon granting them a near infinite mp pool. White Mages have always been powerful offensively so why would it be any different in FFXIV?

[Kabzy]

Assisting killing something is not healing. Your role isn't "Support", your role is "Healer". Let's stop trying to give excuses for a game where you can put a HoT on your tank and DPS, because that'a NOT healing at all.

Can I just point out that even in the Conjurer storyline they stress that our role isn't only healing. SE literally could not have made it more obvious that healers are given offensive abilities for a reason.