JP server player is calling us out. Step up, NA endgamers.

[Klamor]

So, since they don't have the time, is it ok for them to waste others? Maybe ones who just barely have the time? Maybe the ones kicking don't have the time either?

It always seems to be about the time of those who don't care to watch videos, or anything, they are two busy. I mean a ten minute video is much longer than an hour of wiping right? And of course, those already clearing live in moms basement with no friends aside from their +10 Axe, so their time isn't as valuable... right?...

First, don't try to put words in my mouth.

Second, there were no specifics about any of that in my post.

And third, typically no. The people who don't take the time to watch the videos that are available, join an FC willing to help teach, or any of that probably has no interest in doing Savage to start with and probably falls into (5). I was simply making generalities to help spark a discussion on ways we can actually improve the community as a whole. I'm sure I'm not the only fool around here who's noticed a severe lack in anybody doing anything. This isn't an argument over whose time is more valuable. If your +10 axe blinds you from seeing that building something will be more beneficial to you than destroying something, then I don't have anything for you.

[hagare]

Not really. Run selling would just be selling someone a fish. Which is a pretty common thing.

It's also not really exclusive from giving a man a fish or teaching a man to fish.

riiiiiight.
the most common run selling is letting the buyer die and complete the content with the 7 man seller.
I call BS if you say you'll let the buyers wipe you for more than 3 times.

PS: pony farms are different because they're not buying to pass the content, they're paying for guaranteed pony *if it drops*

[Malevicton]

riiiiiight.
the most common run selling is letting the buyer die and complete the content with the 7 man seller.
I call BS if you say you'll let the buyers wipe you for more than 3 times.

PS: pony farms are different because they're not buying to pass the content, they're paying for guaranteed pony *if it drops*

?

I'm pretty sure you misread my comment. I'm familiar with how sell groups work. I'm just saying that people selling fish doesn't keep anyone else from teaching or giving fish. If you take a sell run out of pf, you just have one less pf listing, it doesn't turn into a learning group, or add other groups. The sell group would just be gone.

So blaming run sells for a lack of learning/clear groups is misplaced.

[hagare]

?

I'm pretty sure you misread my comment. I'm familiar with how sell groups work. I'm just saying that people selling fish doesn't keep anyone else from teaching or giving fish. If you take a sell run out of pf, you just have one less pf listing, it doesn't turn into a learning group, or add other groups. The sell group would just be gone.

So blaming run sells for a lack of learning/clear groups is misplaced.

of course it's not solely the fault of run selling.
I'm just saying that it's a part of the problem.
It makes people think "why bother learning fights when I can just pay to get carried."
And that in turn makes more people that doesn't want to learn and just wants to get carried. Whether in bought runs or other runs.
It creates a bad attitude and mindset.

[Malevicton]

of course it's not solely the fault of run selling.
I'm just saying that it's a part of the problem.
It makes people think "why bother learning fights when I can just pay to get carried."
And that in turn makes more people that doesn't want to learn and just wants to get carried. Whether in bought runs or other runs.
It creates a bad attitude and mindset.

It doesn't create the attitude. At worst it allows it, but the attitude has to already be there for the market to emerge.

Run sells operate on supply and demand like everything else. Their existence is a symptom of demand; they aren't a cause. Demand preceded them.

[Whiteroom]

First, don't try to put words in my mouth.

Second, there were no specifics about any of that in my post.

And third, typically no. The people who don't take the time to watch the videos that are available, join an FC willing to help teach, or any of that probably has no interest in doing Savage to start with and probably falls into (5). I was simply making generalities to help spark a discussion on ways we can actually improve the community as a whole. I'm sure I'm not the only fool around here who's noticed a severe lack in anybody doing anything. This isn't an argument over whose time is more valuable. If your +10 axe blinds you from seeing that building something will be more beneficial to you than destroying something, then I don't have anything for you.

They were questions, but yeah, defensiveness is a thing.
Also:

I was simply making generalities to help spark a discussion on ways we can actually improve the community as a whole.

1.Makes comment to spark discussion, and gets angry at the first comment to respond.
2 Makes Generalities to spark discussion, and gets angry when response isn't the one he wanted. (hint: Generalities is a very poor method of sparking constructive conversation.)
3.Until the community can get past thinking the player is more important than the team, none of this will change. (hint: there are 8 people in a raid run, if you don't bother to prepare, it means you think your time is more valuable than the other seven peoples.)
4.It doesn't even need to be Savage, I see at least a few people weekly who join Alex NM blind.

[hagare]

It doesn't create the attitude. At worst it allows it, but the attitude has to already be there for the market to emerge.

Run sells operate on supply and demand like everything else. Their existence is a symptom of demand; they aren't a cause. Demand preceded them.

It allows and exacerbates.
Even if demand is there, if there is no supply, the people who buy runs are gonna have to change their attitude.
They're gonna either start learning or leave the raid scene.

Which is pretty much how it mostly goes in JP community.
Run selling is frowned upon there.

[Lewtskie]

It allows and amplifies.
Even if demand is there, if there is no supply, the people who buy runs are gonna have to change their attitude.
They're gonna either start learning or leave the raid scene.

Which is pretty much how it mostly goes in JP community.
Run selling is frowned upon there.

Frowned upon, sure, but are you saying that there is absolutely no success in selling runs on JP servers? I can tell you the majority of the playerbase US and EU side aren't for selling runs either.

But what's really going to stop them? Glaring at them grudgingly?

And on the note of 'amplifies' I have to strongly disagree. It's just like large corporations and their paranoia concerning piracy. Nothing is going to make someone who never had the mind to pirate something suddenly want to do it. If someone does pirate a product, that desire or that urge to do so was already there, merely hidden while acquiring said product wasn't so wholly out of their way.

[Nadirah]

I gotta say, the last time I tried to say its the community's job to help teach people how to play, I got told off.

Which says something about our players.

[hagare]

Frowned upon, sure, but are you saying that there is absolutely no success in selling runs on JP servers? I can tell you the majority of the playerbase US and EU side aren't for selling runs either.

But what's really going to stop them? Glaring at them grudgingly?

And on the note of 'amplifies' I have to strongly disagree. It's just like large corporations and their paranoia concerning piracy. Nothing is going to make someone who never had the mind to pirate something suddenly want to do it. If someone does pirate a product, that desire or that urge to do so was already there, merely hidden while acquiring said product wasn't so wholly out of their way.

what to do about it? Eh I don't know. I don't buy runs.
Maybe if the community leans more towards teaching and learning together. You know, like the JP community.
Like I said, it's all about the attitude. If you want the community to change, you gotta change.

Nothing is going to make someone who never had the mind to pirate something suddenly want to do it.

well duh. You can't amplify zero.

read what I wrote again:

Even if demand is there, if there is no supply, the people who buy runs are gonna have to change their attitude.
They're gonna either start learning or leave the raid scene.

I gotta say, the last time I tried to say its the community's job to help teach people how to play, I got told off.

Which says something about our players.

yeah different mentality, different attitude.

It's like a debate I had once.
Survival of the fittest vs Working together.
welp numbers don't lie.