"This is my playstyle" is a poor argument for being bad.

[KokonoeAiyoko]

The way most people in this thread, too many to name, have put this expectation on players, especially not realizing their background not even considering one's skill or way someone else enjoys the game I find to be a very toxic thing in-general in MMOs.

Why are players expected to reach a certain DPS level when you are getting through the dungeon fine?
Why are players expected to be in such unison with each other that any mistake they make is not doing a certain amount for the team thus being a bad player?
Why get annoyed at someone who is not on your standard of what one "should" be doing when they are getting by just fine?
Why not ever think that maybe this person has trouble understanding the game, or maybe hasn't had the life experiences you might have to get this part in a game where they can reach this level of DPS comfortable?
Why not realize that some people make mistakes and that's okay?
Why not simply leave if these aren't the people you wish to play with?

This selfishness hurts other's enjoyment. A player not being adequate in skill is not selfishness, everyone starts somewhere and not everyone realizes or studies or even find these things. Not everyone thinks to go search up what is the current meta DPS layout, or optimal way to play a specific dungeon by watching a youtube video. Most people simply play the game and they learn, thus they don't always have the thousands of hours of study the game researcher and endgame players put together that you learned by reading what someone else found out, or what someone else made a video of. Imagine if you never did those things, or didn't have friends and simply picked up the game on a whim and simply played it cause it was Final Fantasy and thought it was cool? You would clearly not have what you might think is common sense of the game when in actuality it isn't for most people.

When people start being pressured and told they aren't optimal in such a negative way all it's going to lead to is fights. People do pay for this game, people do not pay to be scolded by random people. We should instruct people to be better, but not expect them to be this certain threshold, this expectation. It's not fun for them, and it's not in all honesty, it's not fun for you either getting bothered by someone's skill level. Help someone out if you think you can, and if they aren't to your liking, simply don't play with them. Don't force your will on others. Not everyone has lived the life you have, or has gotten to the place you have in this game yet.

[Archaell]

Why are players expected to reach a certain DPS level when you are getting through the dungeon fine?

You can get through the dungeon fine with one person AFK. When everyone is afk - you don't get through the dungeon. You can get through the dungeon fine when one person is not paying attention. When nobody is paying attention - good luck with it.
Our current system simply isn't fair for those who consider other players' feelings and try their best, while there are lazy players in shadows not paying attention and forcing others to do their part, without even being accountable for it.

Why are players expected to be in such unison with each other that any mistake they make is not doing a certain amount for the team thus being a bad player?

Mistakes are made all the time. I don't think that anybody would start riots if ninja failed few mudras or something. The issue is when you have a player who can do better, but they simply refuse.

Why get annoyed at someone who is not on your standard of what one "should" be doing when they are getting by just fine?

Because they are getting by just fine due to the hard work of other party members. Due to their work being forced on the rest of the group.

Why not ever think that maybe this person has trouble understanding the game, or maybe hasn't had the life experiences you might have to get this part in a game where they can reach this level of DPS comfortable?

We can help these players if we have the tools. If a monk isn't doing positionals - we explain how the job works. If somebody isn't doing enough DPS, we can tell them rotations and useful tips to get better - but first we need the tools and be allowed to talk about them. Otherwise it is really hard to help.

Why not realize that some people make mistakes and that's okay?

Mistakes are okay. Mistakes can be fixed - if the player is willing to fix them tho. There are too many warriors of I don't care, who don't care about their contribution. They just want their rewards for their "participation".

Why not simply leave if these aren't the people you wish to play with?

I don't think that many players want to kick others so leaving is pretty much the only solution - if the situation is too much. Here is the issue that sometimes you would like to play with all but one person who isn't contributing to the team efforts. It would be great if we could tell which dps is not doing well enough so that these players could be advised. From there it is quite simple to tell who is watching Netflix and who is willing to listen to your advise without getting offended.

[sirDarts]

*snip*

Read the thread please. The main complaint here is NOT about people who are mediocre, but trying. The main complaint is about people who couldn't give a damn. Be it "Netflix&Game" players, "Ice mages", "WM-less Bards", "GB-less Machinists", "Shield-less Gladiators", "Fairy-less Scholars", players with gear that's CLEARLY not suited for the given content, etc.
These people could ALL be doing better, and they SHOULD, but they don't. And if you call them out, they will retort with the absolutely stupid argument: "I pay 15$ a month, I play the game as I want!"

[Skivvy]

Read the thread please. The main complaint here is NOT about people who are mediocre, but trying. The main complaint is about people who couldn't give a damn. Be it "Netflix&Game" players, "Ice mages", "WM-less Bards", "GB-less Machinists", "Shield-less Gladiators", "Fairy-less Scholars", players with gear that's CLEARLY not suited for the given content, etc.
These people could ALL be doing better, and they SHOULD, but they don't. And if you call them out, they will retort with the absolutely stupid argument: "I pay 15$ a month, I play the game as I want!"

Is this thread really then about a very small minority of players who play to their own tune? Perhaps I'm just extraordinarily lucky, but I've only run into a handful (maybe 2?) of people who are there to do their own thing. Most people seem to try and make some effort at least. Their efforts may not result in anything spectacular, but they do what they can.

Honestly, if you are constantly running across people who "could and SHOULD be doing better, but just aren't", maybe the issue is with you and your expectations are set far too high for encounters with random people.

[Jamein]

Is this thread really then about a very small minority of players who play to their own tune? Perhaps I'm just extraordinarily lucky, but I've only run into a handful (maybe 2?) of people who are there to do their own thing. Most people seem to try and make some effort at least. Their efforts may not result in anything spectacular, but they do what they can.

Honestly, if you are constantly running across people who "could and SHOULD be doing better, but just aren't", maybe the issue is with you and your expectations are set far too high for encounters with random people.

Go into Alex normal, turn on parser and check out what numbers people pull. Do this over and over and eventually you really start to see how BADLY some people are doing. People in FULL eso gear sometimes pull around 500-600 DPS (and I've had a number pulling 200-500 with eso weapons/gear which is absolutely unforgivable as this is auto attack damage), this is pre-heavensward numbers. This is either really bad play/lack of game knowledge or pure lazyness and basically means unless the rest of the DPS do above AVERAGE DPS, you aint clearing. So what it comes down too is there are a good percentage of players, who get carried. No one is asking these players to do 1k+ DPS outside of savage, but if you are constantly below average then you could, and should, do better because it only requires you to get a good grasp on the BASICS of your class.

I'm far from expecting too much from people, if the majority of the playerbase could pull an average amount I would be pretty happy but that is not the case, plenty don't even come close and underperform by a mile.

[Skivvy]

Go into Alex normal, turn on parser and check out what numbers people pull. Do this over and over and eventually you really start to see how BADLY some people are doing. People in FULL eso gear sometimes pull around 500-600 DPS (and I've had a number pulling 200-500 with eso weapons/gear which is absolutely unforgivable as this is auto attack damage), this is pre-heavensward numbers. This is either really bad play/lack of game knowledge or pure lazyness and basically means unless the rest of the DPS do above AVERAGE DPS, you aint clearing. So what it comes down too is there are a good percentage of players, who get carried. No one is asking these players to do 1k+ DPS outside of savage, but if you are constantly below average then you could, and should, do better because it only requires you to get a good grasp on the BASICS of your class.

I'm far from expecting too much from people, if the majority of the playerbase could pull an average amount I would be pretty happy but that is not the case, plenty don't even come close and underperform by a mile.

I know it can be incredibly frustrating to have players who don't perform well, but unless you know for a fact they are trolling or just being lazy, all you can really do it make the best of what you're given. And by that I mean either try and give them some basic pointers and push through, kick the member, or leave yourself.

As mentioned by myself and several others in the, there are a multitude of reasons why someone may not be up to snuff. Not going to get into the details, but every time someone makes a comment along those lines, we get told "You're missing the point of the thread! This is about people who blatantly play their job in a non-standard way and don't care about the party". Seems this thread is confused on what point it's trying to get across. And that's what my reply to Sir Darts was about

Personally, when I've seen people be guilty of this it's always been the tank or healer who wants a fast queue. They have no desire to actually learn the job (i.e. Scholars who rely on the fairy to heal EVERYTHING, White Mages who refuse to use Esuna, Paladins not using flash or cooldowns, etc.) , they want to get in and out of roulette as quickly as possible. I'm sure, being a white mage, you've come across your fair share of tissue paper tanks lol.

I actually ran into my first SCH this week who refused to do anything except let the fairy heal! I take it back, he did do SOMETHING - he was doing emotes and dancing the whole time. -.- Granted this was a low level dungeon, so the fairy was enough healing, but he made it very clear he would do nothing else. So I'm not saying these people don't exist, just that they seem to be pretty rare (thankfully!).

[AnaviAnael]

I actually ran into my first SCH this week who refused to do anything except let the fairy heal! I take it back, he did do SOMETHING - he was doing emotes and dancing the whole time. -.- Granted this was a low level dungeon, so the fairy was enough healing, but he made it very clear he would do nothing else. So I'm not saying these people don't exist, just that they seem to be pretty rare (thankfully!).

Ugh, that's the worst! I had a scholar who tried to auto follow the tank through a Tam Tara run. Fortunately he got called out on his BS and tossed out some dots.

Like you said, thankfully this is rare. Still frustrating though. XD Most people actually do try.

[Jamein]

I know it can be incredibly frustrating to have players who don't perform well, but unless you know for a fact they are trolling or just being lazy, all you can really do it make the best of what you're given. And by that I mean either try and give them some basic pointers and push through, kick the member, or leave yourself.

This happens more often than you might think, personally, I can pull high numbers so I don't really care if someone is below average as I can make up for it. However the point is this is not fair on the rest of the playerbase.

As mentioned by myself and several others in the, there are a multitude of reasons why someone may not be up to snuff.

Honestly there is no reason why someone can't understand the basics of their class. Outside of a mental handicap or even a physical one (I actually had a bard in my old FC who had spine issues and had to play in a very awkward way but that guy was one of the best Bards I have ever played with) you have no excuse to not learn the class you choose to play. This is an MMO not a solo game, people are meant to work together.

If you learn your class, and understand the fundamentals of the game/dungeons/raids (obviously new players are an exception), you're fine in my eyes. I'm not asking for anything more, however plenty of people who have been playing since release don't even bother with this. Lag is the only exception to all of this but I've had aussie players on NA servers/EU servers that perform fine, so my sympathy for that excuse is slim.

[Ashkendor]

As mentioned by myself and several others in the, there are a multitude of reasons why someone may not be up to snuff. Not going to get into the details, but every time someone makes a comment along those lines, we get told "You're missing the point of the thread! This is about people who blatantly play their job in a non-standard way and don't care about the party". Seems this thread is confused on what point it's trying to get across. And that's what my reply to Sir Darts was about

Some of the people he's talking about are doing 200-400 DPS with Eso weapons. The only way you possibly can do that is if you do nothing but autoattack or spend half the fight dead and afk. That's definitely non-standard and not caring about the party.

[AnaviAnael]

Snips for post limit.

Personally, when I've seen people be guilty of this it's always been the tank or healer who wants a fast queue. They have no desire to actually learn the job (i.e. Scholars who rely on the fairy to heal EVERYTHING, White Mages who refuse to use Esuna, Paladins not using flash or cooldowns, etc.) , they want to get in and out of roulette as quickly as possible. I'm sure, being a white mage, you've come across your fair share of tissue paper tanks lol.