Immersion, The Facts & Fiction

[Lyndis]

You're becoming immersed in this thread.

Yeah, I went there again.

SNAP, and it has such bad graphics T.T HOW IS IT POSSIBLE

[Konachibi]

SNAP, and it has such bad graphics T.T HOW IS IT POSSIBLE

ask yourself, it is subjective after all

[Konachibi]

Konachibi, I kindly compliment your take on this. I've seen so many threads that have droned down deafeningly to a cacophony of clamoring complaints. But really, its refreshing to see fellow players not given over to complaints but looking at things logically, kudos Konachibi!

Immersion is in the player's head, not the designer's technology.

Thanks, glad you liked it ^.^

[Rhomagus]

Just came back to read what you all said, I've let my opinion be heard and all. I did however want to say because it bothers me...

Rhomagus is a terrible arguer, not only does he try to act superior because he knows how to talk and look the part. But he just can't quite understand that subjective things are the only things worth arguing considering that FACT can't be argued and is pretty easily understood. So stop arguing fact. Reframe the argument, and see if you're comfortable with the words that you'd have to use that truly shed light on your opinion of the subject. The opposition is using 'immersion' as a rhetorical device to cover up what they really want the design of the game to do. Thus the problem with this thread trying to say that the definitions were the issue when I'm pretty sure the definitions weren't what was being confused,They obviously are as I have yet to see the opposition change their words to better represent their view. it's the simple idea that people need to see where immersion begins and ends and argue their opinions. It's where the opposition imposes their view of immersion to override my view of immersion when the current design is the neutral choice that should please both parties.

Curses, not only did I personally attack someone but I inserted a new argument. Good luck all!

We've negotiated. This thread is the brainchild of trying to please both parties. We're okay with options. The Final Fantasy XIV development team along with Naoki Yoshida is okay with options. I'd argue to even say that the development team under Tanaka was okay with options.

I'll quote Naoki Yoshida and the post that seemed to have started all of this 'immersion' nonsense. Not that it matters anyways but here you go:

Instant Airship Transportation

Clues to Naoki Yoshida's development philosophy

I've also already made a post stapling together several Naoki Yoshida quotes from different interviews and Letters from the Producer.

Not that you have to read it, but I believe you are only frustrated because we are actually coming from as neutral a point of view as we can and supporting our positions from neutral third parties rather than succumbing to appeals to emotion and imbuing our deliveries with a false sense of misguided passion. I'll admit that I have been known to match rhetorical tone. Crica on the other hand is Zen like in her posts. You seemed to be emotionally invested in what your concept of 'immersion', 'fun', and 'Final Fantasy' are and it is unfortunate that you are unable to let go of certain attachments and realize that there really is a good game buried deep underneath it's rushed shell.

We are attempting to see a larger picture. We know there are subjective and objective aspects of immersion. I've already stated this earlier in the thread but Konachibi has shown how the opposition could properly frame the argument so that their premise is correct. As of right now it is not, at least not to a degree that is worth arguing for. Even when you do frame the argument correctly I'll still have a rebuttal. Only then we'll both know that we're dealing in opinion and not misappropriating definitions just to fit our view.

I could post a very long winded argument on social engineering and cite child psychology studies to help frame my argument.

I could include the methaphor of Pavlov's dog and go into behavioral psychology.

I could support my point of view from a marketing perspective which I've already done.

I've got a book that covers game design that I could pull out of my closet and start quoting from that too but I honestly believe that Yoshida's position is very well translated and he makes the best arguments for his decision making process.

You see though, this would be an exercise in futility (an exercise nonetheless) as there is already extensive information at your fingertips. Not only that but at this point, there really is no convincing the opposition. The only thing left for people who are in favor of options is to counteract the opposition's blind sentiment that their definition of immersion is integral to the game's success by neutralizing arguments from a logical perspective and posting threads of our own to counteract all of the 'immersion' threads that are popping up. Hopefully the development team will see these arguments in tandem with the opposition and not make any hasty decisions.

That's all that we can do.

[Rinoa]

Your post is too long. It also has links too other long posts.

[Konachibi]

I think he sits there with a dictionary and just picks out all the long words then links them together into sentences

They sound very star trekky when you read them though. Keep expecting him to suddenly go "That is illogical captain"

[Rhomagus]

Your post is too long. It also has links too other long posts.

Crica's here for the tl;dr crowd.

I'm here for people who want the details.

Unfortunately that probably only consists of 1 computer that has been programmed to love.

I'm here for Data.

I miss Reynaldo.

[Rinoa]

What the HECK is this tl;dr stuff i keep hearing about?

Oh, never mind tl;dr ="Too long; didn't read" sorry

Trekkies
sorry, i had to link it=)

[Konachibi]

What the HECK is this tl;dr stuff i keep hearing about?

Oh, never mind tl;dr ="Too long; didn't read" sorry

Trekkies
sorry, i had to link it=)

Too Late;Debate Ruined.

[Rhomagus]

Updated link in previous post.