/p Blood Price used, WHMs do not use Holy for 15 seconds <se.1>

[Imoen]

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Show me where you put the 7 seconds (more realistically 5) seconds of stun where you don't get a minimum of 8 seconds.

I already said I'm not arguing with you, and I have already told you. (the timing in which it can be an issue) In a previous post.

[Syzygian]

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Show me where you put the 7 seconds (more realistically 5) seconds of stun where you don't get a minimum of 8 seconds.

Don't be bullheaded. Be willing to compromise. If your DRK is able to skillfully do large pulls you should let him get off an AoE/Self-heal burst before you go in with yours simply because things will die faster with both of your AoE skills providing a constant assault instead of one overwriting the other. The run won't benefit from your "my way or the highway" approach.

It all really depends on the size of the pull. If its only 3 mobs, 7-8 seconds is usually enough and most DRKs don't want to AoE that much in a pull of that size. But if they are pulling the entire first two rooms of Fractal and popping cooldowns, you better believe the DRK is going to want to AoE and that he will be spiking up to 1200 DPS with self-heals to match.

[Imoen]

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I don't think that is it, they have a 60 DRK, just for some reason they have it out for me and are hell bent on proving that I'm wrong or something, or proving that I'm a crappy player, or they are really really confused about what I am talking about vs what they are, either way I don't really care.


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I gave them more than enough info already, it's fairly easy to replicate, but I'm not going to spend a crap ton of time, getting friends together in game, go out and obtain old gear (to mimic that level), and throw a video together just to prove that a leveling drk can be on low MP at the end of the fight due to a late holy, when they are already expecting BP returns.

Anyone can walk up to a striking dummy and be insanely low on mp in 2 gcd and 2 ogcds moves on DRK starting at full mp, if they can't see how a surprise aoe SC Holy coming later in BPs life span couldn't screw you up, with DPS that out gear you, when you are already in a situation where you are expecting those returns.. I really, really don't know what to say to them.

[eagledorf]

he will be spiking up to 1200 DPS with self-heals to match.

Wow, well if you really can burst at 1200...

that's about half of what a WHM bursts at in the first room of Fractal or ~200 DPS less than a PLD's single target burst. Truly they should stop Holying for 15 seconds lest you be forced to not self-heal or use Delirium =|

More importantly, you break even on Holy when your ΔDPS = ΔWHM DPS, NOT when your DPS = WHM DPS.

stuff about how the OP is a WHM player

...touche. I didn't notice at all.

[Imoen]

~200 DPS less than a PLD's single target burst.

Well, jee off topic but that bums me out I'm at 900 right now with 3 Vit Acc to rep still and im not even done with left side for PLD Assuming you are talking sword correct?

[eagledorf]

Yeah, Sword and also with a WAR or NIN and all STR. Well, and with i210 weapon.

900 is fine if you're wearing any VIT accessories. Typically at the end of a dungeon boss fight that doesn't involve EveryBossGoesInvulnerableReap you see like 900-1100 DPS from PLDs in STR gear so that seems pretty good to me.

[Imoen]

Yeah, Sword and also with a WAR or NIN and all STR. Well, and with i210 weapon.

And I'm talking about burst, not what you would end a session with the dummy at. 900 is fine if you're wearing VIT accessories.

ya that just bums me out knowing ima put all the rest of that work in and only get 100 dps out of it. lol anyway I digress thanks for the response.

[eagledorf]

Ah...well I mean it's quite a lot of DPS for one person to gain. Remember it used to be about that much gained for each tier of gear, not for upgrades within each tier. I suppose it seems small though now that we're doing a thousand DPS each...

[Imoen]

Ah...well I mean it's quite a lot of DPS for one person to gain. Remember it used to be about that much gained for each tier of gear, not for upgrades within each tier. I suppose it seems small though now that we're doing a thousand DPS each...

Well for tank I didn't really start keeping track till HW because of the shift. I was all like "I CAN EAT ALL THE THINGS! READY - SET - RAID!" lol So I don't really know for 2.0 what it was like. Then again my grp kinda likes taking it easy and waiting a bit, I'm all like 'DUDE lets go get our *ss kicked!" and they all like "nah" then I go sulk in a corner like "but, but for the glory and Eorzea!" /cry lol

[Syzygian]

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Uhhh... I think you quoted the wrong person here... Correct me if I'm wrong but we seem to have been in agreement on the last few pages of this thread? Suddenly we're enemies here? ok... =/ I'm not following.

Wow, well if you really can burst at 1200...

that's about half of what a WHM bursts at in the first room of Fractal or ~200 DPS less than a PLD's single target burst. Truly they should stop Holying for 15 seconds lest you be forced to not self-heal or use Delirium =|

More importantly, you break even on Holy when your ΔDPS = ΔWHM DPS, NOT when your DPS = WHM DPS.

1200 yes, give or take 50-100 depending on gear. In a mix of slaying and melds AoEing on several packs of trash, that's more than doable.

There's really zero need to be combative, and when I quote that DPS it is not to say that I would or could out-DPS a WHM, its just that their burst effectively overwrites a DRK's if it is poorly timed and they are not paying attention to each other. Its not to compare a DRK's DPS to anybody's really, its just a large and relatively lengthy AoE burst, for a tank, that contributes to the party clearing the dungeon faster. That'd be 1200 DPS that just doesn't happen, and sustained over double the period of time during which a WHM would be Holying, according to the many posts from said WHMs in this thread. The WHM would still get to Holy bomb but apparently a short wait is too much to ask, even when they'd get the same burst and no more, assuming they care about their MP. I referenced the self heals as they can largely negate the damage that would have otherwise been stunned by Holy assuming the DRK is popping a CD or two. Oh, and I was talking AoE DPS, of which PLD has next-to-none, nor was I making any comparisons between the tanks' DPS at all for that matter.

And as you elaborated in your subsequent post that you're referring to a PLD in SwO with full slaying and i210, show me a PLD in SwO holding hate on 10+ mobs against equally competent DPS, while also bursting 1400 on single-target DPS. We're talking about dungeons and big packs of trash here.

ΔDPS... if we're talking about the deficit a DRK suffers in DPS, enmity, self-healing, and resources from having literally everything they are tanking stunned repeatedly for 7 seconds while BP is ticking, as opposed to said targets remaining unstunned, its huge. A lot changes, actually. Flexible, varied, powerful, and consistent AoE DPS is one of DRK's utilities in 4-man content, and even some 8-man stuff (A2S). DRKs are not asking WHMs to not DPS, they're asking them to wait a VERY short period of time after they catch up to the tank before they start AoE stuns. WHM suffers no "ΔDPS" because there is no DPS that otherwise does not happen, it is merely delayed for a strategic reason- if you see the DRK pop BP immediately (most do), be polite and wait. If they don't, Holy for days. Don't punish your tank for trying to make a solid contribution to AoEing trash down and speeding up the run. Its as petty as DPS bickering over who is on LB duty. Weigh the options and allow the party as a whole to function and perform at max efficiency, not JUST yourself.

Honestly I really don't see what people are so worked up about. I've never met a WHM in the DF that didn't wait until my BP only had about a GCD's worth of time left to start Holying. But the "I am WHM, hear me roar, screw your DPS ya dumb DRKs how dare you ask ANYTHING of us" attitude in here is wholly foreign to me in-game. But maybe that's because I don't put up annoying macros. :P