I really DO hope Alexander's story steps up, but I don't think it can top Coil's.

[Adire]

.

I place more value on a story that isn't afraid of realism, to involve death in times of war, than a story that is constantly happy ending and bringing back characters to life (like FFXIV has a tendency to do for example). All it takes is one glance at some of things said about some of the characters dying in FFXIV even to see that it gets people talking, it gets people feeling, it's an effective strategy for making an involving story, whether or not you personally want to see characters die, it works.

[RiceisNice]

I place more value on a story that isn't afraid of realism, to involve death in times of war, than a story that is constantly happy ending and bringing back characters to life (like FFXIV has a tendency to do for example). All it takes is one glance at some of things said about some of the characters dying in FFXIV even to see that it gets people talking, it gets people feeling, it's an effective strategy for making an involving story, whether or not you personally want to see characters die, it works.

At the same time, it doesn't work if it's pulled off ineffectively, and you're ultimately going to shoot yourself in the leg for future plot development (unless you want to undo said death or someone else takes up his mantle, which imo makes even less sense). We'd have to go to someone else for our technological needs if the person we're killing off is Cid (whom is also a legacy character throughout the franchise)

[Tadus]

Another disqualifying thing about alexander raids is that its fighting themes are in no way as close to bahamuts'. The binding coil music of every boss was very good, it gave people the feeling of "Lets do this!" Alex's music is just boring. Futhermore, I reallt dislike they showed us the story in normal mode. Many of us raiders are use to seeing the story as we progress in turn (like coils). Presenting the fight as easy n hard modes just takes the fun away from hard mode.

[Nalien]

I am not talking only about getting trash mobs again, that is just one lazy part of raid, I would rather love to see some more interaction with raid zone (avoiding mobs and sneaking behind them like in FCOB), maybe some randomly created puzzle (so it would be different every week) etc.

I'd love to see that, I kind of foolishly went into Alexander thinking there might be puzzles, given the first quest had the NPC crowd trying to figure out a code to enter... Instead we just got something worse than dungeons...

What I'd really like to see is a Raid with puzzles like Final Fantasy XI had... The doors in Eldieme Necropolis (essentially involved splitting up to get through), or pretty much anything involving getting around Ru'Aun Gardens... Then there was smaller cases, like the pressure plates in places like Garlaige Citadel, Quicksand Caves, or Horutoto Ruins (which was Job based, rather than pressure IIRC), heck wasn't there a maze somewhere which changed its layout depending on the day of the week? The whole Raid doesn't have to be figuring out the boss mechanics, figuring out a fairly significant puzzle would be a nice change of pace before a boss... I think that's why I'm fairly fond of T2 and T3, certainly not the most amazing of encounters, but sadly perhaps the best Final Fantasy XIV has to offer... If Allagan Rot wasn't brushed under the rug, and they played up the different routes a bit more, T2 might actually have been my favorite encounter, and I practically had a nerdgasm when I got to T9...

People are welcome to say "Stop wanting Final Fantasy XI! This is a different game!", but that isn't what I'm asking for, those are just examples from XI. I'm sure other games have plenty of examples as well, but Final Fantasy XIV on the other hand, has none, and I think that's a problem... I mean the best we have it what? The Sunken Temple of Qarn? It really is quite annoying how, come Raids, quality takes such a hit. Some dungeons have a better build up to their bosses (where as Alexanders are just like, "Oh hey, it's a boss", Coil at least got this right, though not until Second Coil, come to think of it). Stuff like Praetorium and The Aetherochemical Research Facility (plus the Singularity Reactor tagged on the end) would make for better Raids than the Raids we got, Coil include, so would Crystal Tower and Void Ark, if only because they're one continual thing, rather than "First boss down, time to reenter!".

Map design is perhaps the weakest aspect of this game, come to think of it... Oh they look amazing, but in terms of what they do? Next to nothing. Pretty much the same problem Final Fantasy XIII suffered from, now that I mention it... Alexander (or any instant, really) might as well be cut content from that game... Just one nice corridor to run down before a boss... Such a shame that, as time has gone one, the developers show less interest in producing quality maps... T2 and Qarn weren't amazing, but the developers have opted for linearity, rather than improving upon those two examples...

[Morningstar1337]

Map design is perhaps the weakest aspect of this game, come to think of it... Oh they look amazing, but in terms of what they do? Next to nothing. Pretty much the same problem Final Fantasy XIII suffered from, now that I mention it... Alexander (or any instant, really) might as well be cut content from that game... Just one nice corridor to run down before a boss... Such a shame that, as time has gone one, the developers show less interest in producing quality maps... T2 and Qarn weren't amazing, but the developers have opted for linearity, rather than improving upon those two examples...

You can blame the speedrunners and the "illusion of choice" pessimists for that, But a Labyrinth like raid (No I do not count Labrynth of the Anchients), that wipes people at dead ends would be interesting, but then people will be asking for nerfs, someone will had found "the safest path" and render most of these issues moot

[RiceisNice]

You can blame the speedrunners and the "illusion of choice" pessimists for that, But a Labyrinth like raid (No I do not count Labrynth of the Anchients), that wipes people at dead ends would be interesting, but then people will be asking for nerfs, someone will had found "the safest path" and render most of these issues moot

That sort of thing is only fun for the first time, and preferably with a small group of friends (and not randoms). It's a novelty and a dungeon really shouldn't be designed with that in mind. Raids/Dungeons could be a little bit more open ended and be more rewarding when you go out of your way to explore the crook and nannies ( would be a perfect place to put chests in rather than directly on your path)

[Nalien]

You can blame the speedrunners and the "illusion of choice" pessimists for that, But a Labyrinth like raid (No I do not count Labrynth of the Anchients), that wipes people at dead ends would be interesting, but then people will be asking for nerfs, someone will had found "the safest path" and render most of these issues moot

This is why I like T2, before it became a complete joke due to item level bloat. You had different paths, what path you took should have depended on your party setup. That isn't really a case of "This path is always best", you can effectively work things like that. A maze puzzle that changes daily also works with this example. You'd have to go in, identify which layout it is, and take that path, rather than just taking the shortest path - There would be no shortest path.

Heck, I'm fine with linear stuff as well, provided they make it interesting, I guess that's the real issue. T10 is a perfect example of this, it really was just a straight line to the boss, but you can sneak past to avoid encounters. A similar thing could easily work for puzzles, as showcased in the Sunken Temple of Qarn; If you know the solution at the end, you advance and even get more treasure. If you don't? The door still opens up, but you get some extra trash to deal with.

Then there are "puzzles" which are essentially linear, but still work and make you think. Eldieme Necropolis was the example I used from Final Fantasy XI, and to my recollection, you basically had to split up when you reached a door. One group would stay behind, activating the switch so the other group could pass through, they'd then go to the door (which would close by the time they got there) while the other group went to the switch on the other side. That would work very well for a Raid mechanic, though issues might arise with the Undersized Party feature.

When it comes to actual branching paths, I still think "speed runners" is a poor excuse... How many people complain about Neverreap because they've run it so much? That's the issue branching paths is meant to address, and when designed well, the difference in path can be completely obsolete. This is kind of off topic, since this is about dungeons rather than Raids, but I mentioned this in a thread in the past, a well made dungeon with branching paths effectively combats the monotony of running it over and over. Speed runners can force that monotony on themselves if they like, but I don't know anyone who would opt for the same path each time, if presented with different paths, even if one path is easier. Sane people want variety, SE shouldn't use speed runners as an excuse to deny everyone that. The paths can all meet up again at the same final boss (for story purposes, I imagine), but having different paths would add variety. Take Pharos Sirius; Right now we run from the sewers and up. I'd have started us on the ground floor, with a split either taking you through the current dungeon (minus the sewers of course), or dropping you into the sewers and forcing you to take a different route. That could ultimately mean you only fight a different first boss, but it would be variety. What's more, I'd tie something like Treasure Maps and Hunts (which should be force popped) into dungeons. Imagine if you're doing Hullbreaker Isle, but someone in your Duty Finder assigned random group has a Treasure Map there, or could spawn a special optional Hunt boss, both of which reward the entire party with additional rewards? That would break up monotony well. One run you just run through it as you currently do, the next run you're helping someone with an optional boss because it will benefit you (similar to the new player bonus, perhaps?). IMHO, that is what the developers should be working towards with dungeon content, instead they just take the laziest possible route. Speed runners should always be treated as the exception, rather than the rule, IMO. Design something people would get the most enjoyment out of, not something streamlined to an elitist minority. I enjoyed Neverreap once, and I enjoyed Fractal once, because that's the way they are designed, what I'm suggesting my only mean I enjoy them both twice, but well... That's still double the enjoyment I'd get out of them, because they'd simply be better maps, novelty or not.

[Adire]

At the same time, it doesn't work if it's pulled off ineffectively, and you're ultimately going to shoot yourself in the leg for future plot development (unless you want to undo said death or someone else takes up his mantle, which imo makes even less sense). We'd have to go to someone else for our technological needs if the person we're killing off is Cid (whom is also a legacy character throughout the franchise)

Agreed. That's why they should do it effectively, as they did with

Haurchefant

I'm also not saying it should or shouldn't be Cid, hence why I just said I agreed with the overall idea Theodric had. The death of one character doesn't necessarily mean the death of the role the character plays either. Often it introduces an opportunity for a new character's appearance who can fill a similar role.

[Cinicus]

Right? I don't think I can take the death of another character I actually like. I'd rather Alexander gets off its lazy butt, crushes Milde and finally obliterates all goblins like so.

Dude that summon was EPIC! If this is how Alex was introduced in FFXIV.....Damn....If only...Step it up FFXIV DEVS!

[Nalien]

I always thought it would have been nice if Cid got trapped in the World of Darkness, saving Nero, effectively having Nero fill his role for a time. Though the developers utter reluctance to tie past content together (meaning Crystal Tower could never have been a requirement for Heavensward, despite Heavensward being just as unfriendly to get into to new players anyway) means that could never have happened... How good would that have been though? Not to mention how perfectly it ties back into the Void Ark content (I'm still hoping Nero is the leader of the Sky Pirates for reasons, and his whole motivation is given depth with the completion of World of Darkness (researching the Void to save the clones), plus Sky Pirate Nero might as well be Balthier, and being Balthier is the only true way to beat Cid). The fact that all pieces of content are effectively their own little instances, with no overlap because we can't make things like Crystal Tower a requirement for anything (again, despite making all of 2.x a requirement for Heavensward...) is a large part of why this games story lacks depth IMO, and a reason why I consider stuff like Hildibrand and the Mail Mog stuff to be better than certainly 2.0... I mean, Final Coil spoilers;

When Louisoix is Phoenix... I know he said not to summon him, but had Final Coil been a requirement for for Heavensward, we could have had a much more satisfying resolution to the Ul'dah plot... "Oh, Nanamo is dead? Screw it lets summon Phoenix", "Oh, the Scions are dead? Well we need them, hey Phoenix?!", both more satisfying than the "Gotcha!"'s being pulled for those points... Heck, don't even need to summon Phoenix, have the old bird have gifted them with OP Phoenix Downs at the end of Final Coil... Don't even need to have completed Coil for that to then work, it can just be another case of what I hope they do with Nero/Void Ark, where people who've done Coil can go "They're using the thing from Coil!" and people who haven't can go "Where'd they get that?" and then do Coil and go "Ohhhh!". I wrote a better plot conclusion in a rant SE, dwell on that for a while, would ya?

As for Alexander... That story completely falls flat because it has absolutely no foreshadowing (that I recall, the Illuminati seemed more likely to summon a Cheese Primal before they randomly summoned Alexander...). Coils worked because right from the start of the game, you had an understanding of that plot; Bahamut showed up, wreaked the world, then something happened. None of the characters were randomly inserted like Mide is (though you'd need to have played 1.23 to really get the two main players in Coil, but they're still mentioned in the opening cutscene of the game). All of Coil is basically discovering the truth behind events presented to you in the games trailer. Alexander doesn't have that. He doesn't have anything. Everything related to Alexander is just plugged in at the end. "What happened to Bahamut?" was a question I was asking when 1.0 went down. "What is the Enigma Codex?" is a question I'm no where near as invested in.

You know what would have improved Alexander? Two things; One, make him a threat. Place some settlement off the map for him to have Holy Judgement'd when he was summoned, and have the gap between that and our Raid be him recharging. Bam, now he is a threat, though still no where close to "I had a whole trailer dedicated to me blowing up the world" level Bahamut and Coil got. Two, introduce Mide earlier, or if not Mide, the person she's looking for, or a friend of hers, or whatever. We had quests in Idyllshire. We could have had an NPC who had something (another piece of the Enigma Codex) guide us around through much of those quests. Come the end of those quests, the Illuminati could have killed him off, with some vague foreshadowing that they can't have the thing they took (the piece of the Enigma Codex). Then when Alexander rolls out and Mide is introduced, along with the Enigma Codex, all the pieces fall in place, and we're invested because of those early quests.

That would have been much better than "Oh hi, I'm Alexander, I'm going to spend the next year crawling out of this river, but please consider me to be a real threat". Bahamut was a real threat, seeing pieces of him throughout Coil made the Raid compelling just from looking at it. Alexander is retarded, and I mean that in the truest sense of the word; He is slow. He is crawling out of a river slowly. He hasn't harmed a single person. Heck the Illuminati haven't either really (during one of the quests they upset that one Goblin I think? Happened off screen though, of course). I might be interested in who Mide keeps talking about, but all my interactions with Mide are over, they were over very quickly. Meanwhile, Bahamut, Louisoix, Nael van Darnus, I got all of them years ago, long before I walked into the Binding Coil... That's why Coil had me invested, and Alexander just doesn't, never mind the fact that story mode effectively makes the true reward meaningless (at least IMO). I didn't do Coil for the gear, I did it for the story, and the challenge made that far more rewarding. That's gone with Alexander though.

As for that point... Yeah, Story Mode ruins Alexander. That's not to say I'm against it, I'm just against it coming first. When I did A1, do you know what I did? I predicted every change they made for A1S. "I bet we'll have four bombs, since there are four adds", "I bet that green AoE will stay there for a while like T1", "I bet they'll drop down differently, making the green AoE placement matter", you know what that did? It made A1S easier. Of course it did, how could it not? Even if you don't try to predict the changes, you're going to have a general sense of what to do than if you'd gone in blind, and you can't go in blind because Story Mode is a requirement... I'd have much rather seen Savage introduced first, with the Story Mode effectively being the Minstrel's Ballad; The Minstrel hears the tale of someone (not you!) clearing Alexander, and lets you recount the tale with the story mode. Perhaps tie it into server first, so a group on your server clears A4S, concluding the current Raid, then everyone can go unlock the Story Mode from the Minstrel, perhaps throw some recognition to the server first group with the quest? That's just a much more compelling system to me. It adds an extra reward to being server first (an actual reward rather, since world first is all anyone cares about). It doesn't force people who want the story to do the hard content, and likewise it doesn't force people who want a challenging story to do the faceroll content.

EDIT: Thinking about it, the best way to establish Alexander as an actual problem? Tiamat told us about Bahamut. Nidhogg got away. Have Nidhogg summon Bahamut in an attempt to destroy Ishgard, then have Alexander pop up and end Bahamut. Why does that work, other than it establishing Alexander as stronger than Bahamut? It works because it is a reference to the best Final Fantasy. Now that would have gotten me significantly pumped up, ready to be disappointed by the actual Raid.

You know what, screw it, just rewatching that got me pumped, that's my new head canon. Nidhogg was getting ready to attack Ishgard, summoned Bahamut, then Gobbie Justice got in the way giving us that epicness. No "Alexander is going to crawl out of the river". None of that, he is out of the river and recharging and everyone is terrified having just watched him prevent a second Bahamut flavoured Calamity. I didn't even really write this, Hironobu Sakaguchi did, well over 15 years ago. Who knows, maybe this can still happen come 3.4, when Alexander will finally have pulled himself out of the damned river...