Four Ways to Die - why the Tank Meta feels "off".

[AbandonedPaladin]

So, basically...you want SE to implement WoW-style "active mitigation". As someone who played through half of Warlords of Draenor (the expansion that really relied on active mitigation), that's not as fun as you think. You still use the same rotations, same dCDs, etc. The only difference is, if you mess up your rotation, rather than screwing dmg (done or taken) by a small % for a few sec, you died. Granted, it's not like the rotation was hard (it was super easy); but you did the same thing all the time. It was all homogenized and boring.

I will admit I don't play recent WoW expansions so I don't really know much about them. However, to clarify my point a little bit and avoid misunderstanding, let me quote my other reply from another thread:

I shall agree with the OP that Tank GCD can be fixed and will result in better gameplay experience overall. In fact, I believe that only by simply reducing Rage of Halone/Delirium/Storm's Path's effective timing from 20s to 10s, while doubling their effectivesness (RoH now reduces roughly 20% of boss' physical damage, Delirium 20% of boss' magical damage and SP just plainly reduces 20% overall damage dealt). Plus, making Sheltron/Reprisal some sort of a 10-seconds cooldown isntead of 30 ish but reducing their effectiveness will go a giant step towards achieving the aforementioned goal of better gameplay experience.

Also, another thing just suddenly came to my mind: What do you all think if SE makes boss' attacks less scripted but more unpredictable (But still with a "Minimum time gap" between big skills, as if they have a recast timer of their own)? So that DPS-oriented Tanks will just be a high-risk, high reward playstyle which requires tanks to be on their toes and swap stance back anytime against those tankbusters:

So a risk-oriented tank will either: Shield Lob -> RoH combo -> Going sword oath -> Goring blade -> etc etc aka feeling good DPSing until boss runs out of things to cast but Hypercompressed Plasma

OR: Shield Lob -> RoH combo -> Going sword oath -> Goring bl.... OH SHIT HYPERCOMPRESSED PLASMA IS BEING CAST -> Shield Oath + Rampart + Sentinels.

But an anticipative, less risk-oriented tank will go: Shield Lob -> RoH Combo -> etc etc OH NICE HE IS HYPERCOMPRESSING ME -> Pops cooldowns -> Live -> change to sword oath knowing that mofo won't come up anymore until the next Landing.

Thus the risk vs reward gameplay.

[Jpec07]

I'm scratching my head, trying to figure out how Active Mitigation bled into this discussion. Two of the tanking classes already have it built into their DNA (WAR is very much so an Active Mitigation class that relies on self heals--and it works, and DRK manages their MP to be able to use Dark Arts to make their cooldowns more effective). Technically, any situation where you need to push a button to survive is Active Mitigation, so technically every tank in the game already has it. But even in this case, it does not change the meta/paradigm. That "fifth way to die" is only there when there's more damage incoming, which is why tanks right now are able to completely ignore their Active Mitigation combos in favor of higher DPS.

What Sapphida is arguing is that this feels really off to a lot of "career tanks," who play tank classes because we like being able to take obscene amounts of damage that would obliterate a DPS class in two seconds. Active Mitigation doesn't mean Jack Diddly unless you actually need to use it. I think this thread is showing that we're less of a minority than might have originally seemed, and a lot of us want to be rewarded for being tanky. We want to be able to wear full fending and have a health pool twice as large the next DPS, and not feel like we're holding back our group because of it (because what tank doesn't like having 20k HP? It's something we can show off that used to directly correlate to our gear progression and our tankiness). We want fending accessories to not feel wasted, because fending is what we signed up for.

[Deezee]

Tanks are not ignoring their active mitigation in the meta. Show me any parse where tanks are clearing content and not using shadowskin, shadow wall, rampart, sentinel, hallowed ground, living dead, vengeance...

"More damage" might just make it so you're locked into tank stances for an entire fight (nullifying everything the expansion gave WARs, for instance, outside of Equilibrium) but it wouldn't change optimal play which focuses on how to most effectively use your GCDs, and all tank GCDs currently deal damage. There'd still be the VIT/STR trade off analysis because of this and so on.

Tuning fights so that you can be suboptimal and clear won't change how to optimally play, either ("I can stack passive mitigation and sit in tank stance and not care about anything else"); it'll just let suboptimal players clear without having to be concerned with improving their performance given the game's design.

To realistically impact the meta you must change the way tank GCDs work, full stop.

[Jpec07]

Was mostly referring to situations where they neglect use of their mitigation rotation in favor of heavier damage (i.e. Tanking in Deliverence, dropping Grit, etc.). I guess I don't really count cooldown usage as "Active Mitigation," though the sheer number of defensive CDs tanks have to use certainly makes it feel like it sometimes.

Tanks are not ignoring their active mitigation in the meta. Show me any parse where tanks are clearing content and not using shadowskin, shadow wall, rampart, sentinel, hallowed ground, living dead, vengeance...

"More damage" might just make it so you're locked into tank stances for an entire fight (nullifying everything the expansion gave WARs, for instance, outside of Equilibrium) but it wouldn't change optimal play which focuses on how to most effectively use your GCDs, and all tank GCDs currently deal damage. There'd still be the VIT/STR trade off analysis because of this and so on.

Tuning fights so that you can be suboptimal and clear won't change how to optimally play, either ("I can stack passive mitigation and sit in tank stance and not care about anything else"); it'll just let suboptimal players clear without having to be concerned with improving their performance given the game's design.

To realistically impact the meta you must change the way tank GCDs work, full stop.

When you say "GCD," are you referring to cooldown abilities like the ones you listed? Or are you referring to things like the RoH combo? "GCD" usually means "global cool down," which is the minimum amount of time that must lapse between any attack, where a cooldown is a temporary self-cast buff that can only be cast with low frequency. If you're saying we need to change tank defensive CDs, I'd be onboard with that, but it might be too drastic a change for them to consider making.

[Deezee]

Was mostly referring to situations where they neglect use of their mitigation rotation in favor of heavier damage (i.e. Tanking in Deliverence, dropping Grit, etc.). I guess I don't really count cooldown usage as "Active Mitigation," though the sheer number of defensive CDs tanks have to use certainly makes it feel like it sometimes.

How is leaving a passive tank stance on any more active than turning a mitigation cooldown on?

Advocating that tanks should just be able to stack passive tankiness and be an asset would be the same as DPS players saying "why can't you just buff auto attacks so high that it doesn't matter what I do with my rotations and I'm still valuable to the group?"

[Alahra]

"More damage" might just make it so you're locked into tank stances for an entire fight (nullifying everything the expansion gave WARs, for instance, outside of Equilibrium)

The DPS stances are intended first for off-tanking (and soloing), so they would still have a purpose.

[Deezee]

The DPS stances are intended first for off-tanking (and soloing), so they would still have a purpose.

What content are you soloing once you're done with MSQ/at level cap?

This would just also even more firmly cement WARs as the kings of OTing and further take a dump on DRK/PLD comps.

::EDIT:: And if "DPS stances were intended for soloing" then why is it you don't unlock the WAR dps stance until 50, when you had 20 previous levels of content to "solo" through without it?

[Deezee]

When you say "GCD," are you referring to cooldown abilities like the ones you listed? Or are you referring to things like the RoH combo? "GCD" usually means "global cool down," which is the minimum amount of time that must lapse between any attack, where a cooldown is a temporary self-cast buff that can only be cast with low frequency. If you're saying we need to change tank defensive CDs, I'd be onboard with that, but it might be too drastic a change for them to consider making.

When I say GCD, I mean, what a tank is pressing every 2.5 (or less, depending on skill speed) seconds. Which is what separates good players from bad players of any class. Cooldowns are technically oGCD (off global cooldown) and are most optimally pressed inbetween GCDs.

Every single tank GCD deals damage AND generates threat, currently, and some even deal damage, generate threat and provide mitigation all at once (halone/path/delirium). Because of this, theorycrafters responsible for "the meta" will always be eeking out the maximum amount of damage a tank brings after having provided a sufficient amount of mitigation to clear a fight.

[Jpec07]

How is leaving a passive tank stance on any more active than turning a mitigation cooldown on?

Because even in those stances, the majority of their damage mitigation (preventing/negating damage through healing) requires constant player action. You won't heal yourself as a WAR or DRK doing your healing rotation unless you're in your tank "stance."

Advocating that tanks should just be able to stack passive tankiness and be an asset would be the same as DPS players saying "why can't you just buff auto attacks so high that it doesn't matter what I do with my rotations and I'm still valuable to the group?"

It would be more akin to DPS saying "I want to be able to have my gear affect my ability to do the job I signed up for. Wearing 210 trinkets that are for my job and my job only should make my DPS go up." We want our Fending gear to help us defend ourselves and our group, and that defense to contribute to group success. It feels really weird to have a paradigm in place that basically forces us to forego our tankiness and focus on an aspect of the game that, for those that feel this way, feels uninteresting.

[Ralvenom]

[snip]

Thus the risk vs reward gameplay.

In other words, RNG can screw you over, and there's not a thing you could do about it. No thanks!

I'm scratching my head, trying to figure out how Active Mitigation bled into this discussion. [...] Technically, any situation where you need to push a button to survive is Active Mitigation

Tanks are not ignoring their active mitigation in the meta
[...] shadowskin, shadow wall, rampart, sentinel, hallowed ground, living dead, vengeance...

I don't think you understand what Active Mitigation is at all...Active Mitigation
You literally do certain abilities all the time to stay alive -- as part of your rotation. It would basically be similar to the same thing we do now as tanks, except we would be dead if we messed up slightly. The current meta is using CDs to deal with tankbusters, not consistent use of abilities to prevent dying to autoattacks. Active Mitigation =/= use of CDs to survive tankbusters.