Four Ways to Die - why the Tank Meta feels "off".

[Jpec07]

I'm scratching my head, trying to figure out how Active Mitigation bled into this discussion. Two of the tanking classes already have it built into their DNA (WAR is very much so an Active Mitigation class that relies on self heals--and it works, and DRK manages their MP to be able to use Dark Arts to make their cooldowns more effective). Technically, any situation where you need to push a button to survive is Active Mitigation, so technically every tank in the game already has it. But even in this case, it does not change the meta/paradigm. That "fifth way to die" is only there when there's more damage incoming, which is why tanks right now are able to completely ignore their Active Mitigation combos in favor of higher DPS.

What Sapphida is arguing is that this feels really off to a lot of "career tanks," who play tank classes because we like being able to take obscene amounts of damage that would obliterate a DPS class in two seconds. Active Mitigation doesn't mean Jack Diddly unless you actually need to use it. I think this thread is showing that we're less of a minority than might have originally seemed, and a lot of us want to be rewarded for being tanky. We want to be able to wear full fending and have a health pool twice as large the next DPS, and not feel like we're holding back our group because of it (because what tank doesn't like having 20k HP? It's something we can show off that used to directly correlate to our gear progression and our tankiness). We want fending accessories to not feel wasted, because fending is what we signed up for.

[Deezee]

Tanks are not ignoring their active mitigation in the meta. Show me any parse where tanks are clearing content and not using shadowskin, shadow wall, rampart, sentinel, hallowed ground, living dead, vengeance...

"More damage" might just make it so you're locked into tank stances for an entire fight (nullifying everything the expansion gave WARs, for instance, outside of Equilibrium) but it wouldn't change optimal play which focuses on how to most effectively use your GCDs, and all tank GCDs currently deal damage. There'd still be the VIT/STR trade off analysis because of this and so on.

Tuning fights so that you can be suboptimal and clear won't change how to optimally play, either ("I can stack passive mitigation and sit in tank stance and not care about anything else"); it'll just let suboptimal players clear without having to be concerned with improving their performance given the game's design.

To realistically impact the meta you must change the way tank GCDs work, full stop.

[Alahra]

"More damage" might just make it so you're locked into tank stances for an entire fight (nullifying everything the expansion gave WARs, for instance, outside of Equilibrium)

The DPS stances are intended first for off-tanking (and soloing), so they would still have a purpose.

[Deezee]

The DPS stances are intended first for off-tanking (and soloing), so they would still have a purpose.

What content are you soloing once you're done with MSQ/at level cap?

This would just also even more firmly cement WARs as the kings of OTing and further take a dump on DRK/PLD comps.

::EDIT:: And if "DPS stances were intended for soloing" then why is it you don't unlock the WAR dps stance until 50, when you had 20 previous levels of content to "solo" through without it?

[Alahra]

What content are you soloing once you're done with MSQ/at level cap?

Part of the game is leveling and it always has been, and part of the function of DPS modes to non-DPS classes (normally, tanks and healers) is to provide for better solo play when tanking/healing focus aren't nearly as useful. It is not their sole purpose at all, but part of their whole function. Treasure Maps and weekly/daily hunts are both relevant solo content at 60, too, in addition to leveling.

And DPS stances are surely meant for OTing and they always have been--whether DRK and PLD are properly balanced as OTs in terms of damage dealt is a separate matter. If the developers intended for DPS stances to be used while main tanking, they likely wouldn't have added an accuracy bonus to the tanking stances to ease the accuracy burden on the main tank without also adding it to the DPS stance (and at that point, it would simply make more sense to reduce the frontal accuracy requirements).

Does the current design support that intent? Not particularly. But you can't say that Deliverance would have no purpose if it weren't usable while main tanking as that ignores the other half of tanking, which is off-tanking a number of fights.

[Ralvenom]

[snip]

Thus the risk vs reward gameplay.

In other words, RNG can screw you over, and there's not a thing you could do about it. No thanks!

I'm scratching my head, trying to figure out how Active Mitigation bled into this discussion. [...] Technically, any situation where you need to push a button to survive is Active Mitigation

Tanks are not ignoring their active mitigation in the meta
[...] shadowskin, shadow wall, rampart, sentinel, hallowed ground, living dead, vengeance...

I don't think you understand what Active Mitigation is at all...Active Mitigation
You literally do certain abilities all the time to stay alive -- as part of your rotation. It would basically be similar to the same thing we do now as tanks, except we would be dead if we messed up slightly. The current meta is using CDs to deal with tankbusters, not consistent use of abilities to prevent dying to autoattacks. Active Mitigation =/= use of CDs to survive tankbusters.

[Jpec07]

I don't think you understand what Active Mitigation is at all...Active Mitigation
You literally do certain abilities all the time to stay alive -- as part of your rotation. It would basically be similar to the same thing we do now as tanks, except we would be dead if we messed up slightly. The current meta is using CDs to deal with tankbusters, not consistent use of abilities to prevent dying to autoattacks.

As a (former) Prot Warrior whose class was ruined by Active Mitigation, I am intimately familiar with it. WARs have it, DRKs have it (a little less), and PLD doesn't really have it at all. It is a design that works for some classes/jobs, and for WAR and DRK, I think it functions very well.

But the point is that they aren't using it.

EDIT: Deezee, I wasn't sure how much it helped in A:S (only have a PLD at 60, but they've seemed extremely helpful in leveling and level 50 content) but the goal of a tank (according to the "immovable wall" philosophy) is to mitigate and minimize as much incoming damage as you can. Even if those self-heals only hit for 1k, they'd still be worth using in that philosophy, because that's less healing that the healers need to give you ("every little bit helps").

I think the point of this thread (that the "wall" philosophy doesn't fit the current meta/paradigm) and your suggestion are not incompatible, I'm just not sure that I agree. What are your ideas for how to change the tank abilities to be more useful, and how do you think this would help the meta/paradigm of damage-focused tanking? I'm genuinely curious.

[Deezee]

What are your ideas for how to change the tank abilities to be more useful, and how do you think this would help the meta/paradigm of damage-focused tanking? I'm genuinely curious.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ur-Ways-to-Die

Does the current design support that intent? Not particularly. But you can't say that Deliverance would have no purpose if it weren't usable while main tanking as that ignores the other half of tanking, which is off-tanking a number of fights.

If at some point all you're bringing a WAR for is for them to OT in deliverance then someone will figure out how to replace them with a DPS. Look at Rav EX: very easy to solo heal, solo tank, and 6 DPS... Once gear levels are high enough, people will be able to bring one tank, one healer, and 6 DPS into A1S and down oppressor before 0.5 spawns. They're already bringing one healer, two tanks and 5 DPS to do it before the first jump.

[Alahra]

If at some point all you're bringing a WAR for is for them to OT in deliverance then someone will figure out how to replace them with a DPS. Look at Rav EX: very easy to solo heal, solo tank, and 6 DPS... Once gear levels are high enough, people will be able to bring one tank, one healer, and 6 DPS into A1S and down oppressor before 0.5 spawns.

You're forgetting about tank swaps, though. That's not a mechanic they've leveraged as much in HW so far, but a number of fights in ARR encouraged them, as do fights with timed adds. In those situations, the off-tank uses DPS stance when the tank stance isn't necessary. You're taking an incredibly narrow view of this at the moment.