Four Ways to Die - why the Tank Meta feels "off".

[Instrumentality]

What IS the current Tank Meta?

As anyone with some 3.0 raiding experience will tell you, the current tank meta is very much focused on DPS. Contrary to how a lot of veteran MMO players might expect to have to build and play as a tank, the way top end raiding works is such that if played properly a tank can contribute a large amount of DPS to the raidgroup's overall total. The catch? In order to do so, they have to sacrifice quite a large amount of "tankiness".

I can't think of a current MMO where this isn't the established 'meta'. WoW scaled back on it kind of hard recently, but at one point tanks were the top dps because of Vengeance, but DPS stacking still exist in Mastery even now.

I get that nostalgia is really strong for a lot of MMO veterans (I've been playing MMOs since 2000 with EQ), but when we're reaching back years and multiple expansions in other MMOs to find comparisons maybe the conversation has gone a bit astray.

[RapBreon]

I can't think of a current MMO where this isn't the established 'meta'.

Think of a game (not necessarily video games either) that has a competitive scene that doesn't. I'm at a loss, except for stuff like Tic-Tac-Toe (which may have one, beats me). It's a natural consequence of a drive to perform better than your peers.

I don't think any game that has the potential to be taken seriously can avoid developing a meta. It can function of more microscopic levels; but it tends to be there.

[Sapphidia]

I can't think of a current MMO where this isn't the established 'meta'. WoW scaled back on it kind of hard recently, but at one point tanks were the top dps because of Vengeance, but DPS stacking still exist in Mastery even now.

I've seen this type of comment a lot on both of my threads, and whilst there's truth in it, it's missed the point. The issue isnt that tanks are having to push their dps as hard as possible. That -will- always be part of tanks. You accept it'll be less than a DPS class but all tanks in all MMOs have always been able to contribute to the dps to the best of their abilities.

The issue in FFXIV is just HOW MUCH YOU SACRIFICE in order to push your dps, and how this requirement not only reduces that "feel" of tankiness but pretty much prevents you from gaining any real satisfaction that the gear you gain from progression rewards is helping this.

In WoW, prot warriors didn't suddenly drop to Battle stance and wear leather armor in order to max their damage. Virtually all WoW tanks now gain damage from their tank stats. A tank with huge amounts of gear trying to do the most damage they can will be wearing almost identical gear to a tank who's trying to be as survivable as possible, and their rotations wont be that different either. They might just swap out a trinket or something.

That's the point here. Tank DPS has always been important, and there's emphasis on it in all MMOs. But here, the balance is skewed hugely far in favor of DPS. Tanks are expected to tank in their DPS stance as much as humanly possible. Any gains in gear that make them tankier are immediately sacrificed into a direct dps conversion (get a new chest? Drop a vit acc for str so your HP stays the same. Already wearing full slaying? Probably means you can tank more in Sword Oath). The way the game mechanics are set up, coupled with the fact that tanks can waltz into alex savage and perform perfectly well in base level "undergeared" stuff just means there is ZERO incentive to gear up as a tank, even if it's incidental.

Tanks never really get to feel the benefit of getting tougher and tougher here - the satisfaction the game gives them for playing their class well and getting upgrades comes from higher DPS, not in seeing past tankbusters barely move their health bar when it used to nearly kill them.

There are arguments that "extra dps is always important" and "tankiness is a binary state - you either survive or dont". This is short sighted. Survivability of a tank is a two person job - healer and tank working together. The Meta in FFXIV is for the tank to push as much responsibility for this onto their healer as possible. They specifically try to go into an encounter wearing as little designated tank gear as possible and tanking in dps stance as much as possible as long as the healer can cope. That's fine and all, but getting tankier DOES help your healer out. It may be a binary thing of "if the tank survives you dont need any more tankiness" but is this really any different to "if you have enough DPS to beat the enrage, you dont need any more dps". It adds security and safety to the encounter. It makes it easier, the same as higher dps makes it easier.

The reason why people are eschewing tank stats isnt because "dps is always better" or "tankiness isnt important". Both of those are purely subjective. The issue is the balance - tanks can survive Alex Savage fights in 190 gear with slaying accs in dps stance, but a lot of undergeared raidgroups couldnt hit the DPS checks. The DPS check remains the harder part of the encounter and the tank survivability is easier. Yes, taking a 25,000 health tank with 50% parry chance who always tanks in Shield Oath -would- be far far easier to heal than a sword oath 15k health one... but the increase in healing ease doesnt translate to any significant increase in the chance to complete the encounter.

I counter with this: let's make a few hypothetical changes to A1S. The Hyper compressed Plasma now hits for 10,000 more damage than it does now. Royal Fount now hits for closer to 8,000 on a tank in tank stance and is no longer scripted - it can come at random points throughout the fight, including very close to the tank buster (and can be blocked/parried). Auto attacks are increased by 50%. The total health of the oppressor is reduced by 5%.

In this situation, with 5% less health the enrage timer is still tough but tanks woudl be fine just pushing as much dps as they could in tank stance. Every other person in the raidgroup would play the same with the same mechanics, but tanks would always be at risk of dying if healers werent lookign after them. The fact that royal fount could come at any point, the harder autos, all would mean that tanks would need to use some cooldowns more reactively, and would benefit hugely from tank stats - not that Parry is good, but if parry had a bigger return then it would -help-. A big health pool would -help- as it would reduce the chance of tanks being randomly burst by unfortunately timed royal founts.

Maybe the numbers are off but you get what I mean - the issue with tanks being so focused on DPS isnt that dps shouldnt be important... it's that incoming tank damage is so fundamentally MINOR in this current patch (even compared to 2.0 raiding - T9 and T13 felt MUCH harder on the tanks than anything in alex savage from a damage-income perspective) that tanks can just ignore any reason to make themselves tougher. And THAT is what feels off.

[Instrumentality]

The issue in FFXIV is just HOW MUCH YOU SACRIFICE in order to push your dps, and how this requirement not only reduces that "feel" of tankiness but pretty much prevents you from gaining any real satisfaction that the gear you gain from progression rewards is helping this.

I need to stop you here, because this is not true. Death Knights in WoW for quite a while in the current expansion had the option of sacrificing a tremendous amount of 'tankability' for very notable DPS increases which, unsurprisingly, was pretty much the only choice to make. This also happens in how you build Rift tank specs, and in how you build 'tanks' in Tera or tanks in SWTOR for what mods/enhancements/etc you place in your armor.


This is what I mean. I simply don't accept that your premise is true that tanks are somehow unused to this concept or that it's stretched obscenely here, and the assertion otherwise feels more like a myth/nostalgia to me than it does to any thing that actually exist in the tanking world of today. Tanks have for multiple expansions across multiple different MMOs had the choice of sacrificing durability for DPS, FFXIV isn't even the most extreme example of it that comes to mind (which would be warrior tanks in Tera).

[RapBreon]

-snip-

Apart from what Instrumentality has said; the point we're pushing is that it's a lose-lose situation.

Solve the DPS meta so that the balance is shifted in favour of 'wall-tanks' (kind of like First Coil, though that may have more to do with WAR just being poop in more than one way) and 'DPS-tanks' will be here in your stead writing 4600 word (maybe not so eloquently) essays on how we can shift the meta back into their favour. You can only shift the meta, you can't kill the concept (which is the underlying problem) entirely.

This dance is done to death in every MMO. That is the constant jockeying to make the game in their image (which is understandable). The only real solution is homogenization of performance, which has the natural consequence of diluting the 'fantasy' inherent to each unique class. Fantasies are after all based on a unique distinction.

[Lyth]

-snip-

An experienced healer heals in phase with the incoming damage. Between heals, they reapply dots and dps. Inexperienced healers heal out of phase of the incoming damage. Damage accumulates and they play catch-up. More HP doesn't make it easier to heal. Mitigation stats (DEF/MDEF) make it easier to heal. You are never required to make a trade off with a left side piece (i.e. mitigation stats) to do more dps through gear. HP is not mitigation.

Even if you increase the incoming damage by some arbitrary amount, tanks will still find the minimum HP required to survive. Remember that gear is designed to compensate for a variety of skill levels. Once you meet the minimum gear check for your group's skill level, you can afford to play more aggressively. If you're unable to switch out of full vit even at max ilevel, chances are that nobody less skilled that yourself is going to be clearing this content, even at the end of the raid cycle.

[Alahra]

More HP doesn't make it easier to heal. Mitigation stats (DEF/MDEF) make it easier to heal.

Not this old canard again. Having more HP does decrease the burden of healing, assuming a rhythm in which the healer caps off the tank and then does something else (usually DPSing). A higher HP total means the healer has more time for other tasks, whether DPSing, avoiding mechanics, or healing other members of the party before needing to refocus attention on tank healing. That makes the healer's job (healing) easier.

Even if you increase the incoming damage by some arbitrary amount, tanks will still find the minimum HP required to survive.

It's still possible for the minimum HP to be set too low (which seems to be the case for HW so far in comparison to raiding in ARR). It's one thing for tanks to start focusing more on offense as their gear, their healers' gear, and group familiarity with a given encounter all increase. It's another for offense to be the focus from day one.

[Deezee]

Not this old canard again. Having more HP does decrease the burden of healing, assuming a rhythm in which the healer caps off the tank and then does something else (usually DPSing). A higher HP total means the healer has more time for other tasks, whether DPSing, avoiding mechanics, or healing other members of the party before needing to refocus attention on tank healing. That makes the healer's job (healing) easier.

"This old canard?" A cure hits me for about 4k hp right now. In order to give a healer even one extra GCD to dps, I'd then need to have 4000 more HP, right? Anything less and there's a chance I could die. I'm already running melded accessories and STR spec; even if I spec'd full vit and had BiS 210 fending accessories (which I couldn't just do overnight due to not having the drops, pages, esos and gobcoats to obtain them) - I don't think it's even possible for me to have 4000 more HP.

And even if I did that, that gives a healer all of what, exactly? One extra GCD for a stone 3 that could miss in savage? Meanwhile, I lose how much STR and how much damage on every single one of my GCDs?

That's why VIT isn't a trade off and why the STR meta is a no brainer.

[Alahra]

That's why VIT isn't a trade off and why the STR meta is a no brainer.

I never said VIT was better than STR, but the viewpoint that having more VIT doesn't impact healing difficulty is something I've seen on these forums many times. That's objectively untrue. Now, is the amount by which VIT eases things for the healer enough to justify *not* going STR? Presently, no, as the content simply doesn't require much VIT at all and it *does* require a lot of DPS.

And as an aside, you're also underestimating how much HP VIT actually provides (which is also common whenever someone says VIT doesn't help the healer). On my DRK, I go from 12796 HP with STR accessories to 16240 just with i170 Fending. That's almost 4k right there (and I'm not VIT spec'd either). Surely i190 or i200 Fending accessories would provide more.

[Deezee]

And as an aside, you're also underestimating how much HP VIT actually provides (which is also common whenever someone says VIT doesn't help the healer). On my DRK, I go from 12796 HP with STR accessories to 16240 just with i170 Fending. That's almost 4k right there (and I'm not VIT spec'd either). Surely i190 or i200 Fending accessories would provide more.

I'd gain 129 VIT if I swapped (4 melds and 1 210 slaying); I'd lose 171 STR in the process. I just swapped 35 STR to 35 vit to test, and I went from 16609 HP to 17326. (717 HP gain divided by 35 equates to about 20.5 HP per vit.) I'd gain 2644.5 HP (3361.5 if I swapped from STR stats to VIT stats, but then I'd be losing 206 STR compared to what I'm currently running) over what I had if I had BiS 210 fending, which isn't even enough to free up a single GCD.