Wanderer’s Minuet, Gauss Barrel and Positive Gameplay Additions

[Alahra]

I'm not really sure why some people think that gauss/minuet are *nerfs* because the jobs perform exactly how they did before. By not using those new stances, you'll do the same proportional damage the job did before to other classes. Now, with the stance turned on, they can get a bit closer to the other dps jobs if played correctly. No more of bard being dead last, just like maybe one step behind? :P

This isn't true, though. BRD/MCH are about 20% behind the melee DPS *with* Minuet/Gauss, and they were about 20% behind them at 50 *without* Minuet/Gauss. Therefore, they *don't* do the same proportional damage. That's why in some sense it "feels" like a nerf--their overall damage is about the same relative to everyone else and they now are less mobile (and somewhat "clunkier") than before.

[Cherie]

This isn't true, though. BRD/MCH are about 20% behind the melee DPS *with* Minuet/Gauss, and they were about 20% behind them at 50 *without* Minuet/Gauss. Therefore, they *don't* do the same proportional damage. That's why in some sense it "feels" like a nerf--their overall damage is about the same relative to everyone else and they now are less mobile (and somewhat "clunkier") than before.

Not sure where you are getting this from. Could you post a source? I personally do more with minuet on than without it so... In my personal case I do more with it on. I can't say I've beaten all of savage coil, but I'm currently working on A3S so I'm probably not doing everything wrong.

Edit: I was going to add, it's not a straight 30% buff like the tool tips says. Here is where the confusion of the tooltip comes in. You do lose damage from the cast times of course. This is obvious. You lose about 20% of your damage due of the cast times. The buff is 30% which because of math, it's not 10% but lets say it round out to a little less than 10%.

So it's less, you are right, but the buff compensates to give you a bit over (though less than you are probably expecting). I hope that answered.

[Alahra]

Not sure where you are getting this from. Could you post a source? I personally do more with minuet on than without it so... In my personal case I do more with it on. I can't say I've beaten all of savage coil, but I'm currently working on A3S so I'm probably not doing everything wrong.

Experience, as well as various discussions from the DPS forums (though discussing the source of the data isn't generally advised on the forums). You will naturally do more damage with WM/GB at 60 than without it, but *proportionally* the difference between a BRD/MCH at 60 and a NIN/MNK/DRG at 60 (a BRD/MCH will usually do around 800 DPS if an equally geared melee is doing 1000 DPS) is roughly the same as it was between a BRD at 50 and a NIN/MNK/DRG at 50 (around 450 DPS for the BRD and 600 DPS for the melee, at their best).

It's not that WM is a nerf at level 60--it's that it feels like one *relative to level 50* since you give up your mobility (and pick up the various annoyances of casting and oGCD use) in exchange for no proportional DPS gain relative to the other classes.

[Cherie]

Experience, as well as various discussions from the DPS forums (though discussing the source of the data isn't generally advised on the forums). You will naturally do more damage with WM/GB at 60 than without it, but *proportionally* the difference between a BRD/MCH at 60 and a NIN/MNK/DRG at 60 (a BRD/MCH will usually do around 800 DPS if an equally geared melee is doing 1000 DPS) is roughly the same as it was between a BRD at 50 and a NIN/MNK/DRG at 50 (around 450 DPS for the BRD and 600 DPS for the melee, at their best).

Hard for me to discuss without a source. I don't doubt you are serious though. I've seen forums that have said otherwise as well (agreeing with what you are saying). Are you sure the source you mention is recent? When bard/mch first came out with 3.0 there was a official post even on the japanese forums saying that the devs agreed that bard/mch were doing less damage with Gauss/minuet on. The reason I mention these was didn't you say that minuet/gauss was a 20% buff? Cause that's the amount it was when there was a problem. It was later increased to 30%. I may have to do some digging on my own. But I'm sorry I can't really go any further without looking at your information you are going from.

But anyway, hopefully your thread can bring up some hard numbers somewhere/shed light on this if there is an issue, etc. There were lots of threads about the discrepancy at 3.0 launch of course. I wish I could find that thread where the devs posted on. Someone google translated it I think.

[Alahra]

But anyway, hopefully your thread can bring up some hard numbers somewhere/shed light on this if there is an issue, etc. There were lots of threads about the discrepancy at 3.0 launch of course. I wish I could find that thread where the devs posted on. Someone google translated it I think.

Hard numbers are unfortunately hard to come by--we're not allowed to post them, and within the last month they've permanently banned at least one prominent theorycrafter for discussing the data/means by which that data is acquired. I'm familiar with the developer comments on the matter, for what it's worth.

However, either way, I think you're still misunderstanding me to some degree. I'm going to try to explain again. First, the background information for why WM itself feels lackluster:

Numerically, Wanderer's Minuet increases Weaponskill/Ability damage by 30%--that much isn't up to debate. Do a Heavy Shot with it on and you'll do 130% of the damage a Heavy Shot does without it. Auto-attacks by themselves make up approximately 20%-25% of a BRD's damage without WM. In a theoretical sense, WM is a damage increase on single target of about 5% by itself, but in practice, because of the amount of time allotted for oGCD abilities in between shots, you lose more than just the auto-attack damage relative to not using WM (you lose the ability double-weave oGCDs, which means missed Bloodletter procs as well as lost DPS trying to place Flaming Arrow without clipping the GCD). Additional DPS is also lost because of how Straighter Shot proc's actually display--you can't react to them quickly enough (the client doesn't update fast enough). That ends up, in practice, just about cancelling out the WM damage increase, and it's pretty much entirely negated once you have to move to respond to AoEs and other fight mechanics.

It takes the addition of Empyreal Arrow and Gauss Round (respectively) to make up for the penalties to WM/GB. This is still true even *after* the adjustments in 3.01. Prior to 3.01, this problem was much worse, of course: more damage was attached to the WM/GB-only skills, meaning they were even *more* necessary for BRD/MCH to hold the same position relative to the other classes that they did at level 50. It's also important to remember that the 3.01 changes did not really increase overall DPS for BRD and MCH--they simply rearranged where that damage came from so that WM/GB were a larger part of the theoretical "pie."

Now, that's all just background information. The ultimate "issue" (why folks are still frustrated) isn't that WM/GB don't increase damage. They do. However, at level 50, on a boss, a BRD did about 80% of a melee's DPS while being the most mobile DPS and having a fluid system of frequent oGCD use (so frequent, in fact, that it often required using two such abilities in between each GCD). At level 60, a BRD does about 80% of a melee's DPS with less mobility than was available to them and with an inability to properly react both to Bloodletter procs and to Straighter Shot procs, problems which were not present at level 50. (MCH has similar issues with proc reaction and sheer number of oGCDs to use, though they are slightly less glaring).

The end result is that it *feels* (emphasis on this, the impression the state of things presents to the player, especially long term BRDs) like the developers decided that the ranged physical DPS had too much mobility but that their DPS, relative to the other classes, was "just right." Therefore, they took steps to reduce the mobility of these classes and kept their overall DPS contribution the same. *That's* why it feels like a nerf--because level 50 BRDs give up something (their mobility) to end up at the same relative position with regard to DPS on the road to 60.

If, instead, BRDs and MCHs were at 85% or 90% of a melee's damage at level 60 with WM/GB active, they'd feel like they had *gained* something for giving up their mobility. Since their relative DPS hasn't increased, they feel as though they gave up something and got nothing in return except a different playstyle that they probably don't enjoy (if they were the sort of players that enjoyed cast time mechanics for DPS, they'd probably already be focusing on BLM or SMN).

[Raist]

snip

And the real slap in the face is you have to be spot-on with your rotations. Rotations with WM are far less forgiving than the flow was without it. Which is a MAJOR point of frustration for many...also another contributing factor to why many feel there is less improvement.

Go fart around on a dummy for a bit. Run rotations in line with a short term fight (one or two cycles of DoT's) versus a simulated longer fight in both stances. You may be surprised how close they are if your timing is off a bit with WM up versus without. It can be quite punishing at times...especially in the more hectic fights.

[Vespar]

SNIP.

You sir/ma'am have summed up in a few posts EXACTLY why I gave up on maining Bard. It's not just about the numbers. Its about the feels! I loved Bard, but it just "feels" so clunky and not right now. Ive been all over the spectrum leveling other jobs in an effort to replace a love I still cant bear to part with (aka Bard).

Sure, I've gotten used to using WM. I still cant say that I like it. And while it bugs me when other bards refuse to use it (because like it or not it does add to Bard's overall dmg albeit not as much as we'd like), I still sympathize with those who refuse to turn it on. Heck, I agree with them its just.. not right. Something always feels off about it.

To me, I don't get that luxury when I chose between MCH or BRD. Instead I'm defaulting to MCH simply because their playstyle, while it's incredibly similar to BRD, actually works when it comes to the procs.

Ive always felt that the only real major difference between the two is their ESO gear designs lol.

[CosmicKirby]

If, instead, BRDs and MCHs were at 85% or 90% of a melee's damage at level 60 with WM/GB active, they'd feel like they had *gained* something for giving up their mobility. Since their relative DPS hasn't increased, they feel as though they gave up something and got nothing in return except a different playstyle that they probably don't enjoy (if they were the sort of players that enjoyed cast time mechanics for DPS, they'd probably already be focusing on BLM or SMN)

And honestly. If they had outright come and said it, if they had just said, "We're giving BRDs/MCHs Cast times because we don't like your mobility." I would have felt way better about the whole thing. I mean, a nerf is a nerf is a nerf, and I'd disagree with them on the issue, but I'd take it and move on.

The problem for me is, that this was supposed to be a new toy to play with. This is a new ability that carries drastic and persistent downsides with it, contrary to virtually every other ability in the game. Much less, it feels like Square just completely scrapped cool ideas for MCH, they went on at length about how cool "attachments" were supposed to be, just for them to amount into a nerf. (An identical in every single way ability for both classes)

[RiceisNice]

...

Can't necessarily post numbers, but I can sum it up like this; BRD's dps got increased by WM the same way that other jobs have increased their dps through their new skills.. Bard is not the only job that has their dps increased, but other jobs as well. And because of that, the overall damage is still relatively the same as it was in 2.0 (BRD/MCH is still behind other dps jobs by default).

It's not an issue per say (their damage is fine the way it is), but it really throws into the air what they really want BRD/MCH to fill. Are we nerfing their dps because of their mobility (which WM/GB tones down abit, but the damage discrepdency is still the same) or is it because of their support abilities? If it's the latter, why even slam both jobs with the exact same skill to limit mobility (aside from the fact that mobiltiy in itself wasn't that huge of a boon when it came to dps, considering that BLMs and melee were still consistently doing more than BRDs in 2.0).

The way it is right now, BRD and MCH both have the exact same mobility that limits their mobility, and they still play with the same general foundation (keeping DoTs up, re-acting to procs, keeping buffs up). Compared to a SMN/BLM, both have completely different dynamics to their rotation/dps, on top of that SMN is arguably more mobile than BLM, but the two jobs are still fairly close together in dps despite that and players still opt out for whichever is preferble to their playstyle. To me, I don't get that luxury when I chose between MCH or BRD. Instead I'm defaulting to MCH simply because their playstyle, while it's incredibly similar to BRD, actually works when it comes to the procs.