PLD cant even hold the aggro for Alexander savage ...

[Kuwagami]

The actual number is ~63% of WARs DPS, we have data, use it.
http://www.fflogs.com/statistics/7#boss=18&class=Tanks

urgh, that's why I hate it when people bring out parsers as proofs rather than as raw numbers. FFlogs proves nothing. It ignores all the situations. Paladin tanking more in shield than sword because they lose a GCD, do not have infuriate-like skill when they have to go back to tank stance if they dance, paladin not having SE...

on your AS1 example, WARs can tank it with 0 damage penalty during the entire fight. that's not the case for PLDs

Not even counting the fact that FFlogs rely on parses shared by the community, not on ALL datas from every single player out there. Nor the fact that there are much more parses from WARs than from PLDs.

The parsing tests conducted in the pre-AS days were showing PLDs at ~900, DRKs at ~950-1000 and WARs at ~1050-1100 (in equal conditions, i.e with constant SE or equivalent debuff on the dummy)

[SpookyGhost]

The actual number is ~63% of WARs DPS, we have data, use it.
http://www.fflogs.com/statistics/7#boss=18&class=Tanks.

This is an average of all parses uploaded to FFLogs that contain a WAR/PLD/DRK. There are a million variables that are unaccounted for. Raid DPS is a massive factor in how much personal DPS you will gain, which also influences kill times, which in turn can skip phases (see: 0 jump A1S parses). The most controlled environment to compare static DPS between PLD and WAR is a dummy, since Shield Swipe is a DPS loss. You'd also have to determine if you're comparing OT or MT parses, which would be a bit more complicated (due to no longer getting the damage reflect from Vengeance, needing to maintain aggro, etc).

Basically, right now, numbers are hard to actually use as "data", but broader statements like "WAR DPS is higher than PLD" would hold true.

This doesn't affect PLD's aggro holding ability, though. If a PLD wants to hold aggro, it can. With enough Slaying, a proper weapon, and optionally a NIN, you shouldn't have any issues what so ever.

[Jpec07]

Single target enmity is fine, though I could definitely appreciate a buff.

AoE enmity, on the other hand...

[Martin_Arcainess]

Single target enmity is fine, though I could definitely appreciate a buff.

AoE enmity, on the other hand...

Flash and FOF+COS is a great enmity generator. Flash is based on your STR so putting all your bonus points into STR and you will be amazed of how much easier it will be to hold Aggro.

[MeeYow]

Percentile dial is there for a reason, 1000 odd parses across all variables is a much better representation than a dummy and drowns out the small number of outliers.

So, as for the rest, what you are trying to say is I should ignore actual raid data accounting for factors like cooldown usage and ease of stance dancing, in favour of dummy parses which don't even begin to represent a tank in an actual tanking environment?

Raid parsers account for all the situations by the simple virtue of actually being the situation, it is the dummy that fails to account for anything at all.

I mean, simply linking it made you post a list of ways PLD is worse off that are completely lost on a dummy. Seems to be serving its purpose pretty well.

In this scenario being representative is much more important than being controlled. As I said, control is accessible, it is the percentile button.

[IskarJarak]

on your AS1 example, WARs can tank it with 0 damage penalty during the entire fight. that's not the case for PLDs

I dunno about other PLD's, but I do that fight in SwO from start to finish

[Kuwagami]

snip

Just to point out that you can say anything with numbers if you aren't paying enough attention at their real value, PLD now have 78% of WARs dps, using FFlogs to back me up.

If you want to use numbers to show that XX class lacks personal dps compared to YY class, you have to use comparable numbers, i.e. dummy parse. It will ignore raid dps and thus be moot in real situation, but at least your "personal dps" comparison will be correct.

I dunno about other PLD's, but I do that fight in SwO from start to finish

I have never met any PLD eating plasma at i200 in full STR gear without ShO. It could be bad tanks, bad healers, or a mix of both. It's also just my experience, so there could be people who can do it with their group.

[SpookyGhost]

Just to point out that you can say anything with numbers if you aren't paying enough attention at their real value, PLD now have 78% of WARs dps, using FFlogs to back me up.

Actually, PLD deals 90% of WAR's DPS and DRK is the highest DPS tank.

pls nerf DRK ; _ ;

[Velox]

PLD is getting massive buffs in 3.1 as already confirmed by SE. There's no point in complaints now when things will be different in less than a month. I'd say wait and see what happens and what changes before returning to this discussion (if we need to).

[Jpec07]

Flash and FOF+COS is a great enmity generator. Flash is based on your STR so putting all your bonus points into STR and you will be amazed of how much easier it will be to hold Aggro.

Compare that to the 9001 AoE abilities of DRK and the enmity WAR makes with Overpower and Steel Cyclone, though, and PLD AoE is horribly weak.