The issue nobody wants to address

[tjw]

Can you 100% with confidence say that you are able to spot without a doubt out of 4 DPS in an 8 man party which one isn't carrying their own weight in 100% of all cases where your party is in an encounter that has a DPS check? Especially in case where you have of multiples of the same types of DPS jobs? Additionally are you able to quantify and give feedback to each one of those individual DPS based on their jobs/classes/playstles as to what areas they may need to improve upon and where exactly the fault lies in their specific class rotations?

I speak more in cases where the DPS is going slower than expected, which is when I will then speak up. An example would be in T10 of 2.X; we were often not meeting the DPS check for the second set of adds at first. When it continued, I noticed our SMN was not Bane-ing DoTs onto the other adds; I asked him if he was Bane-ing, and hey presto, next round when he used Bane, we cleared the DPS check. Another example would be a Brayflox I ran; the BLM was a fresh BLM, so they weren't very experienced. When it came to AoE pulls, he wasn't using Fire II or Flare effectively (I believe I saw his rotation as something similar to Fire > Fire II > Fire III > Fire > Fire II > Blizzard III > Freeze spam). I pointed out the better rotation (Fire III > Fire II until low MP > Flare > Convert > Fire III) and they instantly improved.

When it comes to multiple DPS (typical of DF trials), it comes down to a comparison level as well; for example, Bismarck NM with two DRGs; one was applying DoTs and using BotD, one was not. It's not 100% efficient (I don't think I ever said it was? -goes back to check previous answers-) but after a few runs and gauging the DPS, I can typically tell who is causing the wipes/not pulling their weight sufficiently. The bolded part is very important; if the encounter is cleared in an adequate time, I won't be as active in identifying flaws.

And all this mind you with no negative repercussions to your own play, that is assuming that you are playing at the highest level capable for your class given that you are situationally aware enough to accurately and consistently gauge the performance of the 7 other players in party with you with zero margin for error.

When it comes to most DF dungeons where minimal healing is required once I know the pace and environment, yes, it has minimal repercussion to my healing style, and I can gauge how others are performing; I generally get the overall vibe from the first couple pulls of how the DPS are, and then I start looking closer. If we're talking endgame raids in savage, no; I am currently learning A3S, and right now I'm trying to get myself comfortable before I start going beyond. I am doing that already in AS1 and AS2 however; there are a few downtime periods and spike moments where I can see who's not picking up their slack.

Saying that sometimes you're able to spot which DPS may or may not be under-performing (with no accurate way to verify mind you) is all well and good until it matters, at which point you have zero way of providing any meaningful feedback or assessment. saying to the random DPS in ex roulette "are you sure you're doing your rotation? I didnt hear you pop armor crush" isn't really going to hold any water in any realistic scenario.

You have to keep in mind that the most typical scenario of where I can take the backseat driver is in DF, namely dungeons and trials. I would assume that the topic branches not just within progression and relevant content, but across all contents to even guildhests (maybe not that low of a spectrum, but most dungeons). In your last example, I'll instead point out using the Mudras for additional DPS rather than for Huton. Also, it has to be below adequate performance for when I speak up; I have had runs where the feathers weren't being killed fast enough in Alwaysreap (Yes, the DPS were targetting them, though the BRD was not in WM and only using Heavy Shot).

Let me make it clear that I'm not trying to jump on you here, while the ability to see and guesstimate these things is great, your comments don't lend much in the way of credibility to the subject at hand. due to the not so practical nature of a DPS basically needing someone else to keep an eye on them, and the lack of any meaningful consistency.

It wasn't meant to be said to counter the subject at hand; I am neither for or against parsers. I have my own judgements on them, but my typical view is: make mine not your enemy, and I shall not make you mine enemy. Guesstimating will have mistakes; I will only speak up once I'm sure that the DPS is under-performing, usually with what I have observed. As long as I'm polite and offer tips, the DPS usually responds favourably and improved the next pull/round.

Your observations still come from things like watching cast bars (which not every ability has) or flashy animations, things like Bane and BotD are hard to miss generally, bane especially with it's large purple explosion. How what about DoTs? In the event of multiple (melee) jobs applying the same DoTs are you telling me you are aware the majority of the time which job is and isn't reapply DoTs consistently? Once again on jobs without cast bars.

Actually, I think I pointed this before; I also look at the status bars of enemies and players themselves. On the topic of melee; I will notice if a DRG isn't applying Heavy Thrust or CT/PB. Especially if I'm DPSing as well, and have the enemy targetted; movements of the DPS also play a part in confirming whether or not they're playing properly, as all melee have positionals. As you said, it's guesstimating, and I only speak once I know they aren't pulling enough weight (I can understand missing a PB every now and then due to DRG's timing with BotD, but there's a point I start questioning 'Why?')

As I've said, it's not for everyone. I've played most jobs/played with enough people with other jobs that I can pick up on these things. In high-tuned content such as Savage, I can only do so during a few downtimes and phases in A1S and A2S; currently, I am incapable of doing so in A3S because I'm still learning how to save my own ass while doing my own sufficient HPS and DPS.

[Jynx]

It's funny how the story seems to change from needing to be able to see DPS who are terribly below par at like 500-600 DPS in content that requires 1000+ and suddenly when people mention.

"Maybe pay attention"

It changes to people needing to spot every minute move the player makes and not notice the guy hugging a wall with nothing but auto attacks. If your having a hard time telling what person isn't pulling their weight you are.

I get it you all want the numbers but you know as well as I do that if your picking at minor things that are hard to visibly see you should allready be on speaking terms with everyone on your team anyways. What are people trying to do pickup savage runs or something? I've seen the information you wanted me to see and still feel forcing people to be parsed (You think it would just be DPS under the gun lol?) Tanks, Healers, any player now has a visible number tacked to their character that can be misconstrued very easily.

Just because you understand a parser and know how to interperet the data doesn't mean the masses of ignorant people allready in the game. Your asking for people who don't generally understand a rotation to understand the complexity of a proper parse it's not just the number that is important it's the context around that number. Next thing your going to see Healers and Tanks getting shit for not DPSing hard enough in content because over-zealous DPS are forcing them to overheal-tank.

it's not just a simple as throwing a parser into the game and everything will be allright because you can now call out a bad DPS. Your putting a powerfull tool into the hands of people who don't understand what it means, a whole mass of hundreds of thousands of players who don't get what a parse is and you now need to train those players on what it's purpose is otherwise your going to throw the general playerbase into chaos. Parsing is a great tool for people who use it, understand it, and aren't a dick with it.

Seriously I'm not just saying

"Hur-dur parsers are dumb, let me be a bad player herp"

[Ryel]

I speak more in cases where the DPS is going slower than expected, which is when I will then speak up. An example would be in T10 of 2.X; we were often not meeting the DPS check for the second set of adds at first. When it continued, I noticed our SMN was not Bane-ing DoTs onto the other adds; I asked him if he was Bane-ing, and hey presto, next round when he used Bane, we cleared the DPS check. Another example would be a Brayflox I ran; the BLM was a fresh BLM, so they weren't very experienced. When it came to AoE pulls, he wasn't using Fire II or Flare effectively (I believe I saw his rotation as something similar to Fire > Fire II > Fire III > Fire > Fire II > Blizzard III > Freeze spam). I pointed out the better rotation (Fire III > Fire II until low MP > Flare > Convert > Fire III) and they instantly improved.

When it comes to multiple DPS (typical of DF trials), it comes down to a comparison level as well; for example, Bismarck NM with two DRGs; one was applying DoTs and using BotD, one was not. It's not 100% efficient (I don't think I ever said it was? -goes back to check previous answers-) but after a few runs and gauging the DPS, I can typically tell who is causing the wipes/not pulling their weight sufficiently. The bolded part is very important; if the encounter is cleared in an adequate time, I won't be as active in identifying flaws.

Your observations still come from things like watching cast bars (which not every ability has) or flashy animations, things like Bane and BotD are hard to miss generally, bane especially with it's large purple explosion. How what about DoTs? In the event of multiple (melee) jobs applying the same DoTs are you telling me you are aware the majority of the time which job is and isn't reapply DoTs consistently? Once again on jobs without cast bars.

It's funny how the story seems to change from needing to be able to see DPS who are terribly below par at like 500-600 DPS in content that requires 1000+ and suddenly when people mention.

It hasn't?

From the beginning i've argued all points from casual DF to endgame, you're welcome to check my post history. However the person i'm responding to has made claims about their abilities of observation i'm merely asking about the fine details. I've also said from the beginning that i don't doubt their ability but i do doubt their consistency and yeah that does apply to 4 man content where 1 DPS out of 2 may be dragging much further behind the other.

Why does it seem like so many posters on the other side of this discussion keep trying to go for "Gotcha!" moments instead of following the actual conversation?

It wasn't meant to be said to counter the subject at hand; I am neither for or against parsers. I have my own judgements on them, but my typical view is: make mine not your enemy, and I shall not make you mine enemy. Guesstimating will have mistakes; I will only speak up once I'm sure that the DPS is under-performing, usually with what I have observed. As long as I'm polite and offer tips, the DPS usually responds favourably and improved the next pull/round.

That's fine i'm more impressed than anything if you're able to eyeball it half as well as you've been saying for the most part, like i said my posts from the beginning weren't attempting to have a go at you, I'm just genuinely interested in your perspective.

[Colorful]

It's funny how the story seems to change from needing to be able to see DPS who are terribly below par at like 500-600 DPS in content that requires 1000+ and suddenly when people mention.

Because the situation changes from dungeons end content, people have specified DPS checks over and over, but it's funny how you keep ignoring that.

[Jynx]

people have specified DPS checks over and over, but it's funny how you keep ignoring that.

So you need to publicly parse what? Alexander Savage?

[Colorful]

So you need to publicly parse what? Alexander Savage?

Early on before people overgeared the content, both Bismarck Extreme and Ravana Extreme was difficult with a party of randoms. It wasn't only DPS, but people not even understanding basic mechanics such as the Bismarck weather ones. A parser won't fix that, but it would let people know who's failing the DPS checks.

[tjw]

That's fine i'm more impressed than anything if you're able to eyeball it half as well as you've been saying for the most part, like i said my posts from the beginning weren't attempting to have a go at you, I'm just genuinely interested in your perspective.

I think it comes more from the healer role having to be eyeballing everything for the possibility of an uninvited change, and adapting as such; I only extended that further to improve as much as I can. If you ask me to do it as a DPS or tank, I won't be able to; I'm just not experienced enough as either to confidently do so. It's only because I'm at my best as a healer that I can go about perceiving the rest of the party. I'm of the opinion that one should always strive to improve their game; the method to do so differs per person, so I can't say what works the most effectively, so I can only do my best in what I am capable of.

@Colorful: I apologise for taking offence at your previous message. Looking back through the rest of your posts, you weren't trying to be offensive at all, so I apologise for that. You were only really trying to prove a point that ran in-line with the topic while I swayed mine to another perspective.

[Dante_V]

I want a parser to see my damage number. The fear mongering over this is absolutely ridiculous. The one thing that simply cannot be denied is that people want to know what they are doing and some people are scared to find out. Enable a self damage meter on striking dummy and savage content.

[Jynx]

Enable a self damage meter on striking dummy

I have yet to see a person who is against this. Not even the "Fear Mongering" people.

[Whiteroom]

I think it comes more from the healer role having to be eyeballing everything for the possibility of an uninvited change, and adapting as such; I only extended that further to improve as much as I can. If you ask me to do it as a DPS or tank, I won't be able to; I'm just not experienced enough as either to confidently do so. It's only because I'm at my best as a healer that I can go about perceiving the rest of the party.

@Colorful: I apologise for taking offence at your previous message. Looking back through the rest of your posts, you weren't trying to be offensive at all, so I apologise for that. You were only really trying to prove a point that ran in-line with the topic while I swayed mine to another perspective.

Thats all well and good that you can eyeball it. But that whole side of it only involves the "if something is going wrong." It doesn't do the part of letting people test their own rotations and see which are better. Or any of the other information you gain from a parser.

While I would agree that it is better than those fools that go "hurr durr, use the aggro bar!" It still is totally reliant on a healer or someone else knowing all role fairly intmately, and being able to constantly watch all enemies as well as the party list, while performing their own job. Where a parser shows a lot more at a glance. With your method, you run into "I know how to play! Your the one holding us back". With a parser, your response is easily "The numbers tell a very different story."