The Warrior of Light: Plot Device, Mary Sue or A legitamate charatcer

[CyrilLucifer]

That was why Midgardsormr tests you, though, and removes the Blessing. You do almost everything in Heavensward on your character's strength alone, rather than by any gift from Hydaelyn. Hence why you're absolutely dominating once you do regain it.

[Morningstar1337]

That was why Midgardsormr tests you, though, and removes the Blessing. You do almost everything in Heavensward on your character's strength alone, rather than by any gift from Hydaelyn. Hence why you're absolutely dominating once you do regain it.

So basically it's like some glorified weighed training then?

[CyrilLucifer]

So basically it's like some glorified weighed training then?

That's how I interpreted it, yes.

I suppose, in a way Midgardsormr was inadvertently helping us while also testing us. Kind of like how you end up leveling up in FFI while getting the Rat Tail for Bahamut. It's not the direct intention to make you stronger, you just become stronger on your own while being tested.

[Fenral]

But you could also interpret that to mean that there isn't a lore-based reason for the WoL's strengh, ergo... actually super strong for no reason beyond, because they are who they are? Isn't that almost like...

[DPZ2]

The Warrior of Light is not a title I assumed by choice. It is a vision granted by something bigger than all of those who seek my assistance, or my downfall.

With all that, I still have doubts. Do I really know "who I am"?

I've taken the words spoken by a recently defeated foe to heart:

"Who -- what are you?"

A Mary Sue has no doubts.

[CyrilLucifer]

But you could also interpret that to mean that there isn't a lore-based reason for the WoL's strengh, ergo... actually super strong for no reason beyond, because they are who they are? Isn't that almost like...

Oh, I wasn't arguing it one way or the other.

I personally don't think the WoL is a Mary Sue, but I can understand why people would think so. If anything, depending on how the story goes, I think Minfilia is definitely in danger of falling under the trope in the future (if Elidibus starts showing interest in her instead of us, that's going to be a big, big warning sign).

[Fenral]

Oh, I wasn't arguing it one way or the other.

Neither am I, just pointing out what is currently in play. I really wish I had more confidence that it will end up handled skillfully down the line, but... eh, I've been let down on too many trust falls to keep my hopes up.

[Tenkuu]

Like my presence is allowing those around me to take the easy way out, because I'm the invincible hero capable of righting all wrongs. The people around me don't need to take control of their lives or evaluate their own potential, because ultimately I'll be taking care of things either way.

Except that these characters have had lives and been doing their work, in the case of the Scions, long before you ever came around. We know the Scions have been in Eorzea, as the Circle of Knowing, for the past 10 years, but then there's the prior years that they spent becoming the experts in their respective fields that they are. Also, I'd like to mention that this is skillfully averted with Thancred: while on the exterior he appears confident, he's been feeling inadequate in his role in the group, not to mention the fact that he specifically feels like he has failed the Warrior of Light during their formative days in the group. This need to prove himself comes up again and again, and even Minfilia clearly feels the same need when she accompanies us to Leviathan. These are very rounded characters imo.

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like a lot of the characters we meet end up losing out on the depth they could have had in a proper stand-alone work because the MMO story needs to make our presence work and continue appealing to players as the power fantasy that, for all its recent pretensions, it still very much is.

If we take the example of Thancred again, he seems to be considered the strongest of the Scions, and proves his combat skills on at least two occasions, to say nothing of his cunning wit. He is a very multi-faceted character with more to him than meets the eye. So far, of the Scions, he is the most personable, the one we'll most easily have a casual chat with between quests in Waking Sands/Rising Stones.

[Tenkuu]

I actually rather like the "blank slate" way that the WoL is portrayed. It does force you to fit the narrative, but it leaves a lot of the detail up to you. I don't roleplay per se, but I do have some loose headcanons for my character. Some days he'd rather hawk his wares in the markets or go dig up some rare collectible and spend the day BS'ing with Rowena, but he understands that there's things only he can do (as well as things that are expected of him even if other people could do them) and they don't necessarily happen according to his itinerary. There's maybe some well-hidden begrudgement or disappointment behind that stoic nod (especially in the case of the more menial tasks), but he consoles himself by doing whatever he likes when there's no impending Apocalypse (or petty fetch quest) to take care of. Basically, I enjoy multiple facets of the game and that's reflected with how I view my character's IC motivations. :3

Keep in mind that however much the Scions like you as a person, you still signed a contract with them, and this is literally your job. You agreed to join their organization and take on assignments in exchange for some benefits, and it was always obvious that you'd have responsibilities. You even get paid for this job in the form of gil, materia, equipment, etc. Some days, the job may be tough and you may be asked to do more egregious tasks, and other days the other Scions and their allies will celebrate your victories, just like being at an office party thrown for your having done a particularly good job at work. Some of your co-workers you will love, some you'll be indifferent to, and some you might not be able to stand, and your boss could fall under either of those categories. Of course, the setup in this game is that you not only work with the Scions, but grow fond of them as people the more you get to know them. They also come to view you as such an integral part of the group that they ask you for personal favors (Yda and Minfilia notably) or confide in you (Minfilia). Even Thancred, after you've reported your victory over Ifrit to Minfilia, feels that it's necessary for you to know an ugly truth: that the tempered survivors had to be killed. In short, this is a nice reflection of your real life: you have to take the good with the bad.

What I'm referring to as ridiculous (besides the entire notion that someone wants to frame the guy who has been protecting their entire way of life almost every day of the week and twice on sundays) is the fact that during the whole affair, we don't move, protest, say a word, or even gesture in any meaningful way.

There was frankly nothing you could have said that wouldn't have been called an excuse or lie by Teledji, as evidenced by his treatment of the people who did speak up on your behalf. Also, fighting back, as previously pointed out by many, might have been viscerally satisfying, but would otherwise have accomplished nothing other than reinforcing the image Teledji was trying to paint of the Scions as inhuman monsters who view themselves above the law. This isn't even a new image, since in 1.0, Echo users were feared and one young girl was even tossed out of her home by her parents when she revealed having visions. People will be quick to fear what they don't understand, and what Teledji said during that banquet served to feed those fears and doubts. It's really only the fact that the Warrior of Light is not just known as a big hero but also as a helper of the little people, that made it so that the general populace is disinclined to believe that you would do something as horrible as commit murder. The other NPCs during that banquet are more to blame, as the leaders of the GCs could have granted you an at least temporary protection, but even they reacted in a mostly panicked manner and probably were not thinking straight.

The lore is fascinating, and the plot events (as well as the voice acting/delivery) of the expansion were greatly improved over the 2.0 content, in my opinion, but when it comes to our character, I have no faith in SE's ability to make anything compelling.

What's compelling to one may be considered boring or unoriginal by another. For me, for instance, the story is nothing at all without the other Scions. I liked 3.0 a good deal less than most people as a result. All that we accomplished in 3.0 felt like a pale shadow of what we could have accomplished with our full group, and the feeling of stumbling around aimlessly was never more intense for me than in 3.0. We are literally jumping from one plot point to another without any semblance of any reason for doing so other than: Scions handle everyone's problems for them. Technically speaking, we're even the reason for Thordan and the Ascians to create so much trouble in Ishgard. Not to mention that Nanamo, once she revives, does not even pretend to make any effort to look for the Scions who were wrongly persecuted on her behalf.

A certain character in the Japanese version was framed as being your perky, overeager-but-underconfident younger-brother-type character, and that, combined with the number of direct interactions (and background banter) he had with the WoL, resulted in him being fairly well-received by Japanese players. Naturally, he was changed in the English to being enigmatic, with largely inscrutable motivations, and, in that last scene, became kind of an arrogant jerk for reasons that were largely removed from his English-language characterization, leading to a not insignificant amount of hate that is pretty specific to the English-language playerbase. (The Japanese version is closer to "Yeah! I can do this thing! It'll be so cool!" with the response coming across as "Yeah, but so can we! See you again soon!")

I don't think you're talking about Alphinaud, and the only other somewhat perky character I can think of, as of 3.0, is Honoroit, the kid who's always with Emmanellain, but the latter part of your paragraph doesn't sound relevant to him so I'm curious: which character are you talking about?

[Tenkuu]

Minfilia: totally informed usefulness, but fawned over by everyone, and is also "special" in some almost totally informed way, sacrifices herself for no defined reason.
Moenbryda: shows up out of nowhere, is far more useful than our current companions, is immediately loved by everyone, but dies beautifully to reinforce how much better she was than everyone else.
G'raha: shows up basically out of nowhere, has a vaguely tragic past, a really specifically broken set of abilities, and pulls a stunt at the end of CT that is both totally selfish yet framed as being our fault, and just reinforces how much better he was than the rest of us.
Ysayle: heel-face-turns out of nowhere but is immediately accepted as "one of us," vaguely tragic past, a really specifically broken set of abilities, ship tease with a popular male character, and, again, sacrifices herself beautifully as Alphinaud and the others remark at how wonderful she was.
Warrior of Light: shows up out of literally nowhere, is naturally loved by everyone, has a Swiss army superpower that only grows more powerful, and is praised as some great self-sacrificing hero in spite of being the only character who actually cannot come to any sort of lasting harm.

Minfilia: She's insecure, doubts her decisions and worries a lot over everything, not to mention is literally in charge of everything, including the more bureaucratic aspects of the Scions that I'm sure no one else would rather be doing in her place. The reason she sacrifices herself is pretty obvious: at first, to protect the important relic and cherished memory of Louisoix (in his staff), and then, because she considers you alone to be so important that even on your own, you would do the Scions proud and protect the realm, even calling you their beacon of hope.
Moenbryda: She was alluded to long before she arrived as the Sharlayan specialist that Minfilia was going to bring in to help them with their aetheryte problems. She's loved by everyone because she's charismatic and her interactions with Urianger clearly fascinate/amuse/shock them. In spite of her strong and positive attitude, she harbored insecurities with regards to Louisoix, and sacrificed herself when she understood and mirrored his dedication to his beliefs.
G'raha: Interesting character who was full of insecurities from the beginning but sought both answers and to better himself. Far from a perfect character.
Ysayle: Inadvertently caused the deaths of innocents, has deep regrets about her actions and sought to make amends. Considered herself foolish and felt that the only meaningful contribution she could make to the Scions' cause was to stop the Garleans through her own sacrifice.
Warrior of Light: I consider the Warrior of Light from my own perspective, which is to say a highly fallible character who may have to try more than once to get things right, but I know this doesn't necessarily jive lore-wise. Other than that though, obviously their origin is your own personal choice. The superpowers are not ones unique to them: the Path of the Twelve (and now the Scions) was full of people who had the Echo, if several variants of it, and you are shown quite early on to clearly not be the only warrior chosen by Hydaelyn. Heck, you're not even the only gifted adventurer who fought at Carteneau. You're simply the one warrior to have both the Blessing of Light and the Echo to be an implicit part of the Scions' organization and whom they have relied on the most because of the specific set of circumstances that led to them noticing you more than others. Not all those other Echo users will have fought an Ascian and/or Voidsent, for instance, and not all of the other Chosen of Hydaelyn will be fighting on the Scions' side either. This game is not black and white, it's full of shades of grey, and while we may not agree with the Scions' every involvement, we picked their side and are employed by them.

Minfilia: pretty close. Nobody seems to dislike her but the villains, and she's oft lauded as a valuable member of the Scions despite being just a manager. Has close ties with the leaders of the city-states despite being head of a(n admittedly benevolent) paramilitary organization. No glaring character flaws beyond her lack of combat abilities, which nobody seems to care about.

Moenbryda: Ehh... despite seeming composed most of the time, comes across as a bit hotheaded (e.g. attacking Nabiales) and is not as capable a combatant as the Warrior of Light. Otherwise, not too far off; is introduced as a familiar, well-known and beloved figure with the right tools and knowledge to solve our present dilemma. Wouldn't say her death was meant to reinforce her superiority (or how she was too good for this world), but as a product of that hotheadedness (attacking Nabriales... again) leading to her fatal wounding and having her choose to do something useful with her already-spent life (like Louisoix intended to). Either way, is repelled and offed rather easily by an Ascian, so not really a Mary Sue.

G'raha: really just a plot device for the Crystal Tower side-story. Introduced as a trickster and just happens to be extremely relevant to the plot, but ultimately makes a boneheaded move against the wishes of literally everyone present. Not enough character to judge?

Ysayle: performs a High Heel-Face Turn, but still isn't trusted and is disliked by Estinien through most of 3.0. Has the Echo like the Warrior of Light, but uses it for the opposite of its intended purpose (summoning a Primal and intensifying the Dragonsong War). Doesn't think enough and bases her ideals on a fragment of a memory. Transforms into Shiva in full view of the Gration, giving the Garleans reason to intensify their invasion of Eorzea, and is then shot down after crippling the super-dreadnought. Characters are sad she dies, but it's because they lost a comrade they came to know during the story, not just because it's Ysayle.

Warrior of Light: pretty hard to argue. Almost universally loved and accepted, has no enemies but the villains, succeeds at most endeavors, and can pick up any combat style in a matter of moons where it would probably take NPCs years of study and/or training. Still, not everybody likes you; if you start out in Gridania some Wood Wailers act like jackasses while you're talking to Mother Miounne, and let's not forget that Teledji Adeledji saw us as an obstacle to be removed from his path. While we are invincible in the narrative, a fair number of job trainers are... less than pleasant until we earn their respect (lookin' at you, Geva), so it's not like we just show up and are treated as the best thing since sliced bread all the time.

Minfilia: Her decisions are questioned by Alphinaud who, while admittedly is not a shining example of great decision making, makes it clear that he considers her to be fallible in spite of the fact that he does admire and respect her. There's also no such thing as "just a manager", since the manager is the one who literally oversees everything, even the little things no one else wants to deal with. Her organization is benevolent, but has also dipped its hand in every bowl, the Circle of Knowing even being responsible for the reinstatement of the GCs, not to mention that their benevolence protects not specific groups or individuals but the planet itself. She's also not a fighter, so no one expects her to suddenly develop combat abilities.
Moenbryda: Somewhat insecure but highly charismatic person who pretty much just wanted to help an old friend and doesn't care too much how the other Scions view her. Not exactly that familiar to the other Scions as they're clearly surprised by her interactions with Urianger. Her death still remains a sacrifice, as she may have been wounded by Nabriales but there was no indication of it being fatal (Minfilia suffered the same type of wound from Elidibus).
G'raha: Flawed and insecure character who was introduced as such, and was still working out his issues when he left us for good.
Ysayle: She isn't trusted fully by us in the beginning, as is normal for someone who you've grudginly sought out to help you resolve a single problem. Made mistakes and regrets them, tried to atone with the only power she had: using the Primal Shiva, even knowing that it was her own foolish creation.
Warrior of Light: Has overall pretty normal reactions, even getting annoyed during that one set of quests where you're sent to look for a specific corrupted crystal to be able to fight Garuda and keep being mislead because of miscommunication. The combat style argument I don't think is necessarily true. After all, you technically get breaks between missions from the Scions, and those could be as long as a few days or weeks in lore, meaning you could be doing your job training during that time. You can, however, argue that the Warrior of Light has perhaps a stronger aptitude for learning new combat styles, and because of that learns faster. Thancred even comments that he feels the need to hone his skills to be able to match yours, and Minfilia already refers to him as the strongest of the Scions. How others feel about you comes back to shades of grey: not everyone who dislikes you is evil, but they do have different motivations and ways of doing things than you do, leading both you and others who ask for your help to consider them as either evil or misguided.