The Warrior of Light: Plot Device, Mary Sue or A legitamate charatcer

[Fenral]

I think the list of characters you provide there just proves how absurd the term "Mary Sue" has become and proves jomoru's point that it's basically applied to anyone that is strong. I mean... Odysseus would be a worse offender than any of those and he's sort of the foundation of fictional writing.

Minfilia: totally informed usefulness, but fawned over by everyone, and is also "special" in some almost totally informed way, sacrifices herself for no defined reason.
Moenbryda: shows up out of nowhere, is far more useful than our current companions, is immediately loved by everyone, but dies beautifully to reinforce how much better she was than everyone else.
G'raha: shows up basically out of nowhere, has a vaguely tragic past, a really specifically broken set of abilities, and pulls a stunt at the end of CT that is both totally selfish yet framed as being our fault, and just reinforces how much better he was than the rest of us.
Ysayle: heel-face-turns out of nowhere but is immediately accepted as "one of us," vaguely tragic past, a really specifically broken set of abilities, ship tease with a popular male character, and, again, sacrifices herself beautifully as Alphinaud and the others remark at how wonderful she was.
Warrior of Light: shows up out of literally nowhere, is naturally loved by everyone, has a Swiss army superpower that only grows more powerful, and is praised as some great self-sacrificing hero in spite of being the only character who actually cannot come to any sort of lasting harm.

Seeing the pattern yet? It's not the power itself, so much as how it is portrayed, and unfortunately most of the "powerful" characters we've met fall into the same basic mold. For contrast, the Grand Company leaders manage to be powerful without invoking the points above. Even Alphinaud, who was FFXIV's Westley Crusher for a pretty good stretch, has been brought down to a much more compelling level of normal, so we certainly know the writers are capable of creating more believably nuanced characters then they have been.

[Frederick22]

snip

Fenral, you and G'raha need to ifx your differences

Seriously im gonna explote if I hear yo saing "G'raha is a..."

again XD

[Risvertasashi]

....Not even gonna argue Minfilia (I hate her) but:

Moenbryda: Out of nowhere? No. We know where she comes from. And she had a history with Urianger. I wouldn't say 'loved' by the others, just accepted because of said scholarly origins (Actual plot background explaining it! Not something a Sue would have). She was pretty much a plot device, yeah the sacrifice was a bit schlocky, but Mary Sue is a stretch. One of the more accepted definitions of Mary Sue is that all their specialness isn't developed by plot and is there inexplicably. Big fail on this count.
G'raha: Better than the rest of us? Other than that apparently even Allagan royalty can't resist catboys... there's not that much notable about him. Another plot device. Some poor writing with the conclusion, to be sure. Mary Sue? More like one-trick pony.
Ysayle: Well Estinien & Ishgard as a whole isn't so accepting. WoL, on the other hand, seems to readily accept heel-face-turns from anyone. There's a fair bit of plot around her rebels and summoning Shiva because they idealize what they think she stood for. Powerful yes, but again there's plot/background/lore to explain it. And Heavensward plot in particular develops in the direction of how it's not all she thought it was.
Warrior of Light: The "shows up out of nowhere" is just a narrative tool to allow players to headcanon their own story. Not loved by everyone at first; s/he has to work their way up and earn it. Again, plot/story development here. And even then there's plenty that resent you (including certain Syndicate that try to frame you!), although the story does take the 'love the WoL' part a bit far. Plot armor is pretty much standard; protag has to make it to the end, and MMOs don't have a definite end.

Now I do think you point out some good issues. I just don't think "Mary Sue" (or "Canon Sue" or similar terms) is the right label. (Although one certainly can stretch it to fit anything).

[Fenral]

Fenral, you and G'raha need to ifx your differences

I'd love to get a chance to, really, but it's not my call. Mostly included him there so people wouldn't accuse me of not targeting my favorites. Everyone has unreasonable attachments somewhere.

Now I do think you point out some good issues. I just don't think "Mary Sue" (or "Canon Sue" or similar terms) is the right label. (Although one certain can stretch it to fit anything).

Well, Tropes Are Tools. Fact of the matter is, a bunch of our companions manage to fit into the same envelope that Mary Sues (at least as defined on TVTropes) classically fall into. Can it be done well? Of course. Should it have been done in FFXIV as much as it already has been? Debatable. Do I hope most if not all of them will one day be taken in genuinely compelling and original directions? Of course, but right now, it is what it is. Maybe there is a better word to describe it, but I dunno what it is.

[Risvertasashi]

And the TVTropes Mary Sue page spends literally pages talking about how the term has become nearly meaningless because it's so ill defined and how widely overapplied it is. I don't think there's a High Fantasy or Epic protagonist that wouldn't fall into some of those Sue traits. Somewhere else on that site it also speaks more generally how tropes themselves are not actually a bad thing.

Personally, I'd just attack the problems individually. Far-reaching but meaningless terms don't really add to the discussion until you get into the details anyway (as you did). Yep, Moenbryda was a plot device. Yep, the handling of CT's ending was awful. But there have been threads talking about those two example issues, let's keep doing that. Just saying we've got too many sues doesn't help anyone avoid making the same pitfalls.

[Cilia]

Oversimplified, a Mary Sue (Marty Stu) is a character that can do anything better than anyone else and is universally loved despite his/her flaws. Everyone loves him/her no matter how abrasive s/he is, and nothing is ever his / her fault.

Applied to XIV characters:

Minfilia: pretty close. Nobody seems to dislike her but the villains, and she's oft lauded as a valuable member of the Scions despite being just a manager. Has close ties with the leaders of the city-states despite being head of a(n admittedly benevolent) paramilitary organization. No glaring character flaws beyond her lack of combat abilities, which nobody seems to care about.

Moenbryda: Ehh... despite seeming composed most of the time, comes across as a bit hotheaded (e.g. attacking Nabiales) and is not as capable a combatant as the Warrior of Light. Otherwise, not too far off; is introduced as a familiar, well-known and beloved figure with the right tools and knowledge to solve our present dilemma. Wouldn't say her death was meant to reinforce her superiority (or how she was too good for this world), but as a product of that hotheadedness (attacking Nabriales... again) leading to her fatal wounding and having her choose to do something useful with her already-spent life (like Louisoix intended to). Either way, is repelled and offed rather easily by an Ascian, so not really a Mary Sue.

G'raha: really just a plot device for the Crystal Tower side-story. Introduced as a trickster and just happens to be extremely relevant to the plot, but ultimately makes a boneheaded move against the wishes of literally everyone present. Not enough character to judge?

Ysayle: performs a High Heel-Face Turn, but still isn't trusted and is disliked by Estinien through most of 3.0. Has the Echo like the Warrior of Light, but uses it for the opposite of its intended purpose (summoning a Primal and intensifying the Dragonsong War). Doesn't think enough and bases her ideals on a fragment of a memory. Transforms into Shiva in full view of the Gration, giving the Garleans reason to intensify their invasion of Eorzea, and is then shot down after crippling the super-dreadnought. Characters are sad she dies, but it's because they lost a comrade they came to know during the story, not just because it's Ysayle.

Warrior of Light: pretty hard to argue. Almost universally loved and accepted, has no enemies but the villains, succeeds at most endeavors, and can pick up any combat style in a matter of moons where it would probably take NPCs years of study and/or training. Still, not everybody likes you; if you start out in Gridania some Wood Wailers act like jackasses while you're talking to Mother Miounne, and let's not forget that Teledji Adeledji saw us as an obstacle to be removed from his path. While we are invincible in the narrative, a fair number of job trainers are... less than pleasant until we earn their respect (lookin' at you, Geva), so it's not like we just show up and are treated as the best thing since sliced bread all the time.

[Fenral]

I suppose the make-or-break point will be seeing how Mide from the Alexander story plays out. If she heroically sacrifices herself somehow to remove herself and Alexander from the story, but not before convincing Cid and the rest (bonus points for us stoically nodding) that her idealized Alexander is, in fact, flawless, and it was only the bad people doing bad things that made it seem otherwise, we will have not only a total carbon copy rehash of CT, but yet another example of... whatever character type it is we're discussing that isn't technically a Mary Sue.

[Cilia]

Ultimately the problem is that the game cannot assume you have done anything but the MSQ. Everything else is optional, so having side-story characters show up or be referenced further down the line is out of the question. It's just easier to kill them off or have them leave the narrative (as Alisae does) than have to come up with a way to have them come back after "their story" is already finished. The status quo must be preserved, which is probably why Nanamo ended up still alive after 2.5.5's climax. You could get a line or two, and usually only in other "side" content (e.g. Rammbroes mentioning NOAH during the SMN 50+ quest if you finished the World of Darkness), but that's about all I would expect.

Will Mide be killed off while waxing about how her ideal Alexander was perfect, and it's only because the Illuminai perverted it that things went wrong? Too early to say. Chances aren't really in her favor, though. The problem is that when an NPC is made for a specific sub-plot, and then that sub-plot is resolved, they don't really have anything to do... so they end up sitting around with their thumbs up their asses until the writers can come up with something for them to do. It's either that, have them go wander the world (Alisae), or "kill" them off (G'raha). Even MSQ NPCs are hard to figure out what to do with after their story arc is resolved; while killing them off is a bit predictable (and sadly blasé in XIV these days), it's better than having them sitting around doing nothing like WoW's racial leaders (most of whom do nothing during any given expansion).

[Fenral]

Ultimately the problem is that the game cannot assume you have done anything but the MSQ. Everything else is optional, so having side-story characters show up or be referenced further down the line is out of the question.

Again you bring this up, when the game has already proven that that isn't the case. And again, I'm not saying anything about anyone's MSQ involvement, or, in this case, continuation at all. I can't help but point out, though, that everything you argue also applies to characters like Nero, who you are assuming will come back, even though he, too, has left the story (and gotten over his beef with Cid) in much the same way as Alisaie, who you are assuming won't, even though she's actually the only one who has stated she intends to return.

Your analysis is entirely based on subjective opinion and personal feelings towards the characters involved, and has already been contradicted by canon. Whether it was a one-time deal or not is irrelevant, as your statement that it can never happen is already false. There's really no point in trying to define rules when there aren't any. What happens happens.

[Februs]

Does anyone know if any of the specific Job quests shed light on this discussion?

For myself, I only have experienced PLD, DRK, and DRG to current completion (lvl 60), and, of the three, only the Drk story line actually shows any strong indication that our character has a firm will of his own.

[*Keep in mind, when I say "will" I don't just mean will power or resolve. It's obvious that the WoL has incredible resolve to do all the things he does. What I mean is an independent will - the mindset required to have your own desires, opinions, and agenda.]

Trying to avoid going into specific spoilers, the Drk story line is the only one I've seen, so far, that expressed opinions directly in conflict with the WoL's usual role of mindlessly agreeing to whatever people want him to do. The opinions are not directly expressed by the WoL; however, they are shown to be tied to a part of our personality that was, until recently, completely unknown/ignored. It seems to imply that the WoL is a character, albeit a mysterious one that (by the nature of him being customized by the player) is difficult to write with a specific personality.

The PLD story, as well, implies this, as the majority of your role in the lvl 50-60 quest is not commanded. You have actively chose to be involved for yourself.