The issue nobody wants to address

[Kosmos992k]

There is a huge, huge difference between revealing your personal information or having people go through your belongings and a number. I'm honestly surprised you've come up with that, it's a rather poor comparison whereas your other posts were a tad more reasonable. If you don't want to be given advice on how to improve, then either a, start your own party with a no parse rule, or b, stop joining parties where you can't perform to the standards required.

The principle is the same.

This isnt a court of law though, it's a player set community if the standard comes to be to kick combative players who refuse to show their numbers due to some sort of entitlement issue and an underlying fear of being exposed for laziness, then so be it. I just hope those same combative entitled players dont complain when it happens

Actually now, the standard is set by SE, SE decides what constitutes harassment or abuse. I if someone abuses parser data and causes a problem for another player, they may be reported and SE may take action against them. It's their rule set that matters, not the kangaroo court of the online community and a 'community standard' agreed by one group, but not others.

No, we don't. We just allow the feds to do that to us in the name of "safety".

LOL yes, we have allowed our rights to be abrogated in the interests of 'safety' and security haven't we? And in this case, essentially parser proponents are arguing that we should abrogate our rights to decline parsing in favor of *their* interests.

So let's say that parsing would be optional. How would you feel about the other players booting you out of the group for hiding your data? You are the one who decided to not participate. They would note that you do not want to participate.

Premade or pickup in DF? If it's a pre-made and the others want to parse then either I allow them to parse me, or I leave of my own free will, there's no reason to annoy anyone by being a pain if the rest want to parse. If this is a pickup group in DF, and they boot me specifically for not allowing my data to be parsed, I might well report them, if that's the reason they give. If I'm randomly booted, I have nothing to say about it, and if they ask while we're in the instance, I get to decide at that time. It's my choice, not theirs.

[Archaell]

LOL yes, we have allowed our rights to be abrogated in the interests of 'safety' and security haven't we? And in this case, essentially parser proponents are arguing that we should abrogate our rights to decline parsing in favor of *their* interests.

You don't understand one thing. If the parsing would be optional, you would have your right to decline parsing. Nobody would steal your right. But... The rest of the group would have right to kick you from the group for it. That's their right. They would vote if you should stay or not and everybody would use their right to do so. Democracy \o/

Now for the parser that is not optional. Every member of group would see your data, but you would have access to their data. Same rights for everyone. \o/

Slacking off in duty finder is like refusing to pay your subscription fees in full amount. What happens then? The services provided by the group get terminated. You are of course free to search for a new group. But if you aren't pulling your weight the chances are the servises would get yet again get terminated based on democratic vote.

Parser creates problems for people who are not willing to do their part in fights. Your average Miqo'te may get abused for doing a little bit less dps, but do not worry, in such situation you are granted the protection of our vigilant GMs.

[Kosmos992k]

You don't understand one thing. If the parsing would be optional, you would have your right to decline parsing. Nobody would steal your right. But... The rest of the group would have right to kick you from the group for it. That's their right. They would vote if you should stay or not and everybody would use their right to do so. Democracy \o/

You are arguing in favor of imposing something on the majority that is desired by a minority, and yet your argument is democracy? Not that this is a democracy, in the end SE decides what goes and what does not, and I suspect that they will decide what they decide regardless of what we say.

Why can't you see that simply imposing an official parser on everyone is an act that removes/ignores the rights of players to choose? I'm not saying people won't parse, clearly they will. I'm not saying that pre-mades and end-game teams might need to parse, that's really their decision. The situation right now allows players to make that choice if they want to - without taking that choice, or anything else, away from any other players.

[Archaell]

...

Rights to choose what? Extorting others for their own benefit? Because this is the problem. Without official parser we either have no right to complain or we do not even know that somebody has been exploiting us. Parser at least shows you that it is happening and who is causing you harm. And yes, forcing others to do your work is harmful.

I am open to suggestion how can you fix this without use of parser. And using premade parties isn't fix, as these people would just exploit others.

btw. sometimes these players do it due to lack of knowledge or experience. In this case parser would show us where the help is needed and we would be able to fix it. Every player that gets better can then help others to get also better.

[Kosmos992k]

Rights to choose what? Extorting others for their own benefit?

Glass half empty, or glass half full.

I can't argue this any further. I don't believe that there is a widespread problem with people "extorting others for their own benefit" in this game, and I don't think many others would believe so either. It seems a very extreme view in my opinion, and as such, I don't believe we can have a meaningful discussion on that point.

[Archaell]

Glass half empty, or glass half full.

50% of water and 50% of air. You can't ignore the air.

Do you know what would make you believe it? ... Parser. It is easy to ignore something that you can't see. Grab your tank and time your dungeon runs. Tank few instances exactly the same way. Then compare the results. Sooner or later you will get extremely fast run and extremely slow run. The disparity is quite astonishing.

[Whiteroom]

You are arguing in favor of imposing something on the majority that is desired by a minority, and yet your argument is democracy? Not that this is a democracy, in the end SE decides what goes and what does not, and I suspect that they will decide what they decide regardless of what we say.

Why can't you see that simply imposing an official parser on everyone is an act that removes/ignores the rights of players to choose? .

Where do you get your majority, minority numbers?

Also how do you figure the situation right now allows players what they want, without taking the choice away. The last I checked, no console players, a rather large chunk of the playerbase have any choice in the matter.

Also SE does recieve playerbase feedback from the forums and listen to it.

I like the chioce of imposed to describe an official parser. Damn that imposed emote system! Damn that imposed vertical gear progression!

Also, I assume your sig is a troll, or were you really imposing the run you want on the team and were surprised by the response. Even I have the sense if I want a full clear to phrase it as "Could we please do a full exp clear?" You should listen to your own advice if you want to force a specific run style.

[dank1]

The principle is the same.


Actually now, the standard is set by SE, SE decides what constitutes harassment or abuse. I if someone abuses parser data and causes a problem for another player, they may be reported and SE may take action against them. It's their rule set that matters, not the kangaroo court of the online community and a 'community standard' agreed by one group, but not others.

And what makes you sure SE would take action against the player who kicks the player who refused to be cooperative? Realistically speaking I'm sure they rarely take action unless it's an extreme harassment case. Not to mention the fact that refusing to be cooperative with a group and help correct an issue by providing parser info can be viewed as harassment in and of itself.

Seeing as this situation already happens, non performing players do get kicked nowadays and I've NEVER heard of anyone getting penalized for kicking an unwilling player why would the situation change later?
So yes the standards and community rules in game are set by the players regardless of what you think, SE would be more of the judge deciding whether a report goes into harassment/cheating territory and also an enforcer when they believe said report qualifies as harassment/cheating.

Again I'll stand by my point and keep kicking lazy, willfully non-performing players, I'm still still waiting for my ban, but I doubt SE has a rule to ban players who kick those harassing their party by purposely not performing.

[Pells]

... essentially parser proponents are arguing that we should abrogate our rights to decline parsing in favor of *their* interests.

Except parsing is not a right. It is a privilege.