The issue nobody wants to address

[Gilraen]

But, lets throw some imaginary figures out here, if out of 10 people, 9 take the data and use it to improve and 1 gets butthurt over it.

And there's that dichotomy again, that there's only two kinds of player. You're leaving out the third, the players that are already doing the best they can and no amount of random data will help them improve. Are they in the 'hardcore raider' group? Sometimes, but not often. Sometimes these are people playing with a disability, sometimes they're just in it for the fun and want to leave the 'work' at work. And sometimes they are actual hardcore raiders that rely on a different metric than just the numbers, I believe the First Week companies are like this. Either way, there's more than just two kinds of player, the notion that there isn't needs to be put to bed.

[Whiteroom]

A person unreceptive to helpful advice will remain just as unreceptive if you're armed with parser data, and even if there were an official parser add-on...

...Fundamentally though, people who already don't want to listen to advice would seem (to me, at least) more likely to be even more annoyed if parser data is used 'against' them as well.

Not necessarily though. With a parser, they can also see how they perform compared to everyone else. Obviously, this won't affect all of them, but a good number should try to improve a little. Not only that, parsers can include stuff like damage in, mp out, heals out etc. Which also help players improve. "Hmm, I always seem to take double the damage of other people, maybe I should dodge more". Or "Hey, that guy who is my same class, did more damage with less MP, and I find I'm always out of MP, maybe I should look into that."

A lot don't even know if they are playing well or bad, since they have no way to compare to others. I refuse to believe that the majority of bad players are that way intentionally.

[Welsper59]

I don't know that it is all that different. The role playing thing is constantly brought up, that its ok to have an Ice Mage, as long as stuff dies eventually. Maybe my DRK is turning over a new leaf and is at peace with herself, and can no longer use DRK skills, only cross class. It sounds stupid right. Maybe I like to examine each room and vista thoroughly before moving on, checking every nook and cranny. Maybe I don't do my full enmity combo, I mean the dps should adjust to me right? I pay my sub. I don't see that being very different from a dps who only uses half their skills. And look no further than BEX for dps consistantly causing wipes. Or if you would like a 4 man example, Nidhogg, the amount of times I've seen that dps check fail is sad.

Just like with bad DPS, you can do that. By all means, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to do that... just don't be surprised if you get kicked or they Vote Abandon. It's about taking responsibility for your actions. The bad DPS should not be surprised if they get kicked. So how's there a problem there? It's up to your party to determine whether or not something is worth doing, in this case kicking someone. It's not like bad tanks or healers don't exist, as they most certainly do. Bad DPS are not immune to the same result that a bad tank or healer is. If anything, we feel more compelled to pamper bad tanks/healers due to their rarity lol. As for the bad DPS, it's a different matter in that we just don't see the point since the role is, in most cases, not a big deal to getting something done. So bad DPS aren't exactly intentionally pampered, they're just not seen as worth the hassle to switch since its getting done (unless you're wiping due to it). Really though, if you think about it, that "hassle" is just a few things to click ok to. That's how insignificant the role is lol.

It's their responsibilities for that particular event that makes the roles more important than another. That's why I said it's different. Outside of those rare DPS checks, a bad DPS is not going to cause a wipe, unlike a bad healer or tank. It's not fair on that end, but it is what it is. If a tank is expected to tank to prevent a wipe, then they have to do that. If a DPS has to meet a minimum, then they have to do that, like in BEX or Nid. There's not a whole lot of these checks present, which is why I really want there to be that for every single thing in the game, trash included. I mean, if a tank decides to do something wrong or a healer doesn't heal enough, even on trash, the group likely wipes. Not at all fair, right? Let's bring this accountability to its full potential and find actual cause to witch hunt bad DPS, which they clearly need to be since it's such a big deal now. The anarchy... so good.

Edit: I'd also like to add that we really shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking that healing and tanking are the most complex things ever in the game. The amount of physical effort that a good tank or healer puts into the act of tanking or healing is about the same physical effort a bad DPS puts in, i.e. the amount of actions used. Exceptions exist, of course, but your typical fight hardly involves much healing/tanking variance. Using mostly one type of heal, mixed in with occasional 2 or 3 different heals/actions. Tanking to position and doing your 1-2-3. It's the impact that one heal has, or that one threat/mitigation ability has, to the survival of the group, as opposed to one generic DPS attack, that has a greater value. Thus, the inequality of responsibility comes to light. Mind you, my saying this has nothing to do with healers/tanks doing other things, like DPSing, but just with the importance of their roles, fulfilling that role, and how little effort is actually required lol. It's just a daunting task mentally and not as involved physically.

[Urthdigger]

I understand that, but I point blank refuse to believe that a player with decent knowledge of the game can't identify when dps is lower than it should be and who the weak link is especially in 4-man content. Are you honestly saying thaton any 4-man content you can't tell when one or other DPS is low? I just think that for regular conent, parsers are unnecessary,and only when it is needed for everyone to do near optimal dps does parsing become useful in helping players to perfect their play.

It's easy to see when a tank is losing hate or has his HP just plummet. It's easy to tell when a healer just sits there and lets people die. It's not quite so easy to tell which of the two DPS are screwing up. Especially with melee classes like DRG or MNK, I need to know their rotation, and focus on picking their skill usage out of my battle log, and target them to see that they're targeting the right things, on top of taking care of all my other duties. Most of the time that's not exactly feasible. Enmity meters only go so far, especially when you consider usage of skills like Quelling Strikes.

[Welsper59]

It's easy to see when a tank is losing hate or has his HP just plummet. It's easy to tell when a healer just sits there and lets people die. It's not quite so easy to tell which of the two DPS are screwing up. Especially with melee classes like DRG or MNK, I need to know their rotation, and focus on picking their skill usage out of my battle log, and target them to see that they're targeting the right things, on top of taking care of all my other duties. Most of the time that's not exactly feasible. Enmity meters only go so far, especially when you consider usage of skills like Quelling Strikes.

Yeah seriously. There's no way in hell I'm taking the time to bother watching someone do their rotations to figure out what's wrong, unless it's immediately obvious, like a PLD without an Oath would be. If I want to point fingers at someone and call them bad, while having proof of it, I want it to be as straightforward and noticeable as it is for tanks and heals failing to do their jobs... even if people still blame others despite it being their own problem. Like a tank that overpulls to the extent that no amount of healing can keep them alive, a healer that refuses to heal (they're out there), a DPS that complains about something taking too long or that they wiped on a DPS check they clearly didn't do well on, and they blame someone else. Ah how finger pointing is such a focus among us. I love it. Absolutely love it. I'd likely be one of those people that, if there was a witch hunt going on, would pick up the torch and pitchfork just for the fun of it.

[Odett]

And there's that dichotomy again, that there's only two kinds of player. You're leaving out the third, the players that are already doing the best they can and no amount of random data will help them improve. Are they in the 'hardcore raider' group? Sometimes, but not often. Sometimes these are people playing with a disability, sometimes they're just in it for the fun and want to leave the 'work' at work. And sometimes they are actual hardcore raiders that rely on a different metric than just the numbers, I believe the First Week companies are like this. Either way, there's more than just two kinds of player, the notion that there isn't needs to be put to bed.

That was just an example. You're not going to list every type of player in this game whenever you make an example. We all know there are players out there already trying their best, and some players have disabilities, but that's not what this discussion is about. The problem is that this "third player" or any other convenient argument keeps being used over and over to derail or to go around the question whenever someone asks why should DPS players not be held accountable for themselves (which, on every single tired thread that people make about this subject, there is still no answer, by the way).

[Odett]

I also find it a bit funny how the "elitist with the parser!" trope is played out so much. Oftentimes I've found that the biggest jerk in the group is the underperformer themselves trying to pin the blame on other group members.

[dank1]

I also find it a bit funny how the "elitist with the parser!" trope is played out so much. Oftentimes I've found that the biggest jerk in the group is the underperformer themselves trying to pin the blame on other group members.

Sad when most of the encounters with rude players are those when the "non-elitists" are acting worse than the so called "elistists"

[Priya]

I also find it a bit funny how the "elitist with the parser!" trope is played out so much. Oftentimes I've found that the biggest jerk in the group is the underperformer themselves trying to pin the blame on other group members.

> In Brayflox normal with MCH/MNK.
> MCH does knockback on all the things.
> Tank tells MCH that melee hate it especially MNKs; pls no.
> MCH says "I know, I main MNK. It's okay, though, I'm doing all the DPS."
> MNK is consistently between 20-30 DPS higher.
> MNK was never even a part of the MCH/Tank conversation. Continues to quietly DPS.
> MCH continues to knockback all the things.
> Group says nothing else. Finishes dungeon. MNK tops meters.

Case in point.

[Atoli]

...to encourage the community to put in more effort into how they play

THIS is literally the problem I have with your mentality.
Putting EFFORT into how they PLAY.
I don't know when you last checked, but originally the point of a game was to have fun.
Of course, you can't be completely lazy and do nothing and I totally encourage people to learn about their class or take a pointer about things they might be doing wrong, but by the point you spend more EFFORT on your GAME than on a dayjob, sit over possibilities and spreadsheets for weeks and test on thousands of monsters if skill 1 or skill 2 deals 0.002 more dmg than the other in the long run, you probably should think about getting your priorities straight. Or at least not expect everyone to want to play that way.
Playing "decently" is entirely enough to make the game pretty much enjoyable to everyone. It doesn't have to be "perfect". A parser isn't needed for "decent" - the game already provides all the information needed for that (combos, effects, attack strength, castspeed, etc.) and anyone with half a brain can create a good rotation with that.

its ok to have an Ice Mage, as long as stuff dies eventually. Maybe I don't do my full enmity combo, I mean the dps should adjust to me right? I pay my sub. I don't see that being very different from a dps who only uses half their skills.

If someone is WAY underperforming or does something that actually HINDERS the rest of the group (like MCH or WHM knockbacks) it's easy to notice even without a parser. Tell them to read their skill descriptions and that's it.