Raider to Non-Raider: an exhibition on thoughts and misconceptions

[Ashkendor]

So, where do the statics of ARR go? The statics that could get a t13 clear but might not make the cut for an a4s clear? Should they farm alex normal until they disband? This is a big part of the problem. There is no fall back content for raiders that can't contend or don't want to contend with savage.

This is the crux of the problem that my static is running into. We downed A1S on August 18th, only a few weeks after we got in there. We started on A2S the very next week (we beat A1 on our last scheduled raid day of the week) but that's when the problems started. We had a couple of people with persistent real life situations that made them no-show or bail with short notice a few times. None of us were angry about it because real life happens and we all understand that, but the fact of the matter is that it's disappointing for seven people to get together just to sit in a Party Finder for an hour and a half looking for a decent tank. If you don't find one, you go faceroll Normal or farm Ravana or just disband for the night. It's tiring because progress is hideously slow. It makes you feel like you've been doing nothing but A2S even though you're barely touching it. It starts to feel like the first boss of the raid is getting 8/8.

There were two whole weeks where we only got in there for an hour, right after our weekly A1S clear. After that, people's schedules prevented us from raiding again as a static both weeks. Our Bard cleared a few weeks ago with a friend's static, and just last night three more members of our static finally downed it an hour before reset with a solid pug group (now there's an oxymoron, right? :3) that was looking for a similar last-minute miracle. I've heard several variations of "Your static is still on A2S? Omg but that's so easy what's wrong with you guys?" Then they act like issues like pugging a new tank every week shouldn't be holding us back. We could just split up and find new groups, but the fact of the matter is we work well together and we enjoy raiding together, so we tend toward being forgiving with each other almost to a fault. This week, we're trying out our second tank in as many weeks because we finally decided that seven people feeling despondent and stuck was vastly outweighing one person's real life situation.

The sad fact is that pugging for Savage content is horribly hard to do once you're past A1S. The percentage of the playerbase that is past A1 and actually looking for a weekly clear on A2S is woefully low, because most players clearing it are in statics already. It means we end up doing things like getting someone their A1S clear before going into A2S (which sometimes just turns out to be a dreadful waste of time if you're pugging multiple positions in the party), or taking someone that has the A1S clear but zero experience in A2S. We've resigned ourselves to one or no chest clears simply to get the experience in the fight to take back to the static group.

We have some super sharp players that like to push their class limits, but it's really hard to make progress when you can't nail down a solid schedule with an 8/8 team. We're not casuals, but we're also not in there 6 hours a day 7 days a week. Casuals view us as elitist scum. Hardcore raiders view us as filthy casuals. That in and of itself can really wear you down a lot. You start to wonder if there really is something wrong with your group that has you stuck and if it really is worth all the time and effort you're pouring into it.

[Krylo]

Alex savage is meant to be, roughly, coil difficulty. The only reason it seems so much harder is because a lot of it is very gear checky and we're in a massive content dearth at the moment that has slowed the out gearing. In the 2.0 update cycle speed we'd already all mostly be in 210-220 gear, including non-raiders.

If 'it's too hard for the mid-core' is your complaint you should really wait until the next leg of the raid releases when we should be back to the normal update cycle, and see what happens with more gear coming more quickly and more easily.

The update slow down is also likely a larger component to all the 'everyone I know is quitting' complaints than the current raid content as well.

[siverstorm]

It's tiring because progress is hideously slow. It makes you feel like you've been doing nothing but A2S even though you're barely touching it.

This is sadly one of the biggest reasons groups snapped at a3s. My group spent a significantly long time in there as well, there was a lot of tension because of how long it was taking. It wasn't good.

with a solid pug group (now there's an oxymoron, right? :3) that was looking for a similar last-minute miracle.

Yep, finding a suitable replacement in this game with content at this level is so mind-numbingly difficult. I used to be the recruiter for my old coil group and even then we would sift through so many people, unnaturally low damage, bad attitudes, outright lying about their progression, you name it. Take into account alex savage is more difficult and it amplifies.

Of course NA isn't like the JP servers where they have agreed upon strats that allow them to pug up to A3S even without the need for voice comms.

Casuals view us as elitist scum. Hardcore raiders view us as filthy casuals. That in and of itself can really wear you down a lot. You start to wonder if there really is something wrong with your group that has you stuck and if it really is worth all the time and effort you're pouring into it.

I always choose to ignore those types of people, from both ends of the spectrum. I've made a number of friends within the spectrum that aren't ridiculously toxic for no reason. If you enjoy the company you play with then stick with it, I've seen numerous groups on twitch on various floors. The entertaining ones were always the ones that were obviously getting along vs the ones that spend their time getting catty at each other wearing down morale and such.

[zosia]

Alex savage is meant to be, roughly, coil difficulty. The only reason it seems so much harder is because a lot of it is very gear checky and we're in a massive content dearth at the moment that has slowed the out gearing. In the 2.0 update cycle speed we'd already all mostly be in 210-220 gear, including non-raiders.

If 'it's too hard for the mid-core' is your complaint you should really wait until the next leg of the raid releases when we should be back to the normal update cycle, and see what happens with more gear coming more quickly and more easily.

The update slow down is also likely a larger component to all the 'everyone I know is quitting' complaints than the current raid content as well.

This wait and see mentality was what got us into trouble in the first place. If we get alex savage II without any concerns addressed in this thread, especially the tuning one, the raiding community will be in serious trouble. LIke I said a few post ago, even the world 1st group, elysium, said that this might be tuned a little to high.

We waited for HW and trusted that SE would not botch the release of SV and NM alex. We have to be vocal now if we want to see any tweaks to 3.2. I bet you that most of 3.2 is already fleshed and mostly developed.

We have some super sharp players that like to push their class limits, but it's really hard to make progress when you can't nail down a solid schedule with an 8/8 team. We're not casuals, but we're also not in there 6 hours a day 7 days a week. Casuals view us as elitist scum. Hardcore raiders view us as filthy casuals. That in and of itself can really wear you down a lot. You start to wonder if there really is something wrong with your group that has you stuck and if it really is worth all the time and effort you're pouring into it.

I agree with this 100% so much. That's why i wrote this entire thread really. People have very strong preconceived notions of what raiders (and causal) players are like. It's really disparaging when you feel like you don't really fit into the meta atm.

This is sadly one of the biggest reasons groups snapped at a3s. My group spent a significantly long time in there as well, there was a lot of tension because of how long it was taking. It wasn't good.



Yep, finding a suitable replacement in this game with content at this level is so mind-numbingly difficult. I used to be the recruiter for my old coil group and even then we would sift through so many people, unnaturally low damage, bad attitudes, outright lying about their progression, you name it. Take into account alex savage is more difficult and it amplifies.

Of course NA isn't like the JP servers where they have agreed upon strats that allow them to pug up to A3S even without the need for voice comms.



I always choose to ignore those types of people, from both ends of the spectrum. I've made a number of friends within the spectrum that aren't ridiculously toxic for no reason. If you enjoy the company you play with then stick with it, I've seen numerous groups on twitch on various floors. The entertaining ones were always the ones that were obviously getting along vs the ones that spend their time getting catty at each other wearing down morale and such.

Helps to mention that JP play with a much lower latency, if any. Digititus and tethers are a much different creature with NA/EU players where you can literally walk through a tether and not pick it up or you could be stacking on a player and not pass digititus.

[Malevicton]

snip

Not really though. When savage released most remotely-serious raiders had full i180 with 190 weapons and a handful of 190 alex normal gear. That's about where people would have been in 2.X patch cycles as well.

From first to second coil was i90 to i110 max, so people started out 20 ilvls under from day 1. Same for scob to fcob. People were in the 185-190 range when savage launched. At worst the ilvl discrepancy was about 5 ilvls more than previous content. 1 or 2 weeks and that discrepancy is gone (5 weeks to get all your normal alex gear if you were planning ahead for it, meaning only 1 week of relatively lower gear). Given that this patch cycle is longer than previous patch cycles, there's really not an ilvl difference worth mentioning.

It's been about 3 months sicne savage launched, meaning the catch-up patch would normally have been 1-2 weeks ago. We would not have been sitting at 210 (and definitely not 220 since that doesn't exist...?) by this time in other patch cycles.

[Anubis_Nephthys]

There is still one thing people don't seem to understand. Normal Coil =/= Normal Alexander
You cannot really compare Savage Coil and Savage Alexander only because they have the same name, these 2 pieces of content serve completely different purpose.
Savage Alexander is the same what Normal coil was in 2.X. It even offers the same equipment rewards compared to the rest of 3.0.[/B]

You're almost right, except, Yoshi did say that AS1 & AS2 are in like with Coil difficulty, and AS3 & AS4 are more in line with Savage SCoB difficulty.

[Ashkendor]

This is sadly one of the biggest reasons groups snapped at a3s. My group spent a significantly long time in there as well, there was a lot of tension because of how long it was taking. It wasn't good.

I'm scared for my group in A3S. I truly am. I know the difficulty ramps up to 11 in there and I'm not sure how well we'll handle it. I haven't even set foot in there and I'm already intimidated based on what I've seen and been told. We've already decided we aren't going to hit it until we can get 8/8 sorted and committed. We need to get the other four the A2S clear, then we can progress.

Yep, finding a suitable replacement in this game with content at this level is so mind-numbingly difficult. I used to be the recruiter for my old coil group and even then we would sift through so many people, unnaturally low damage, bad attitudes, outright lying about their progression, you name it. Take into account alex savage is more difficult and it amplifies.

Of course NA isn't like the JP servers where they have agreed upon strats that allow them to pug up to A3S even without the need for voice comms.

If there's a silver lining to the past two weeks of mind-numbing pugging every night after our normal Tue/Thur raid times, it's that we've met quite a few players that are in the same place as us, and a handful of more experienced players who are willing to lend a hand just to have something to do. It's given us new people to run things with, new strats to try out (and god yes there are so many, especially for A2S) and it's actually been very nice to do. It doesn't change the fact that being in there six nights a week for the past two weeks straight and still only having half our static have a clear is frustrating. But hey, it's a start.

I always choose to ignore those types of people, from both ends of the spectrum. I've made a number of friends within the spectrum that aren't ridiculously toxic for no reason. If you enjoy the company you play with then stick with it, I've seen numerous groups on twitch on various floors. The entertaining ones were always the ones that were obviously getting along vs the ones that spend their time getting catty at each other wearing down morale and such.

The worst is when they're friends that are truly trying to help but your own frustrations make you want to slap the crap out of them; then you end up feeling awful and guilty at your own reaction and it just makes you even more miserable. o.O

[Rin_Kuroi]

It starts to feel like the first boss of the raid is getting 8/8.

Srsly. The story of my HW raiding experience.

The sad fact is that pugging for Savage content is horribly hard to do once you're past A1S.

Pugging is a nightmare even for those who haven't cleared it like poor ol' me. My static cannot find competent dps to save our lives. We've trialled so many people. The six of us execute nearly perfectly. Sadly we can't get the people we need for the clear because we don't already have the clear.

[siverstorm]

Helps to mention that JP play with a much lower latency, if any. Digititus and tethers are a much different creature with NA/EU players where you can literally walk through a tether and not pick it up or you could be stacking on a player and not pass digititus.

To an extent. The strategies I refer to are things like:
- On the last wave of adds players pick a number one to four and are responsible for the stun on the nth piston starting from a marker going clockwise. E.g. if you're #3 find A, find the third piston (of four) and start attacking
- Tank with digititus must stand in the middle of the boss during cast so the dps can pick it up easily and don't need to scan around looking for who has it (without voice comms), conversely dps stand at two points in relation to the boss (left corner and right corner on the back) after sluice goes out and the healers go to their assigned spots to trade healing and damage down

How people deal with mechanics + their latency is one thing. I wouldn't say latency issues are the reason why pugs don't succeed on NA servers.

I'm scared for my group in A3S. I truly am. I know the difficulty ramps up to 11 in there and I'm not sure how well we'll handle it. I haven't even set foot in there and I'm already intimidated based on what I've seen and been told. We've already decided we aren't going to hit it until we can get 8/8 sorted and committed. We need to get the other four the A2S clear, then we can progress.

Honestly I would suggest you have a sitdown chat with the group once you're 8/8 and just say "this is the fight that the average group took literally over a month on, yes it will take us a long time too" and just have a chat about it. See how everyone's feeling, if they understand what that implication means. I went into it with that mindset and it really eased a lot of the stress of it for me. Taking the "we'll kill it when we kill it" approach definitely alleviates a lot of stress. Unless of course you're trying to be competitive after the fact but that's a completely different mindset.

[Kerwin]

I raid for story. Gear progression is all this game has at the moment and it's not really that exciting. Imo.