Bard - they broke my job

[jmdude]

Moving away from the WM argument, how do you guys feel Bard has been scaling with gear? I've been a little disappointed overall with how little the return has been for DEX. I'm now i205, still 200 weapon, and I average between 1220-1250 with no food, no pot, party bonus. My monk friend has seen substantial boosts in his dps (he's now riding close to 1,450 on average at 203), and I feel the gap should be closer. I know I'm not counting disembowl, but I shouldn't have to. What are other Machinists, Bards doing around 205 with no buffs outside party?

GL allows monks to scale exponentially compared to other classes

[AkashiXI]

GL allows monks to scale exponentially compared to other classes

I understand that much, I still feel Bard is scaling the same way as it did in 2.0 though - Songs are becoming less useful, we're still dealing 200~ish less than other jobs, even moreso in Turns like 2 (SMNs and BLMs destroy us). The Weapon Damage is still a problem imo.

[Judge_Xero]

I understand that much, I still feel Bard is scaling the same way as it did in 2.0 though - Songs are becoming less useful, we're still dealing 200~ish less than other jobs, even moreso in Turns like 2 (SMNs and BLMs destroy us). The Weapon Damage is still a problem imo.

You are right that BRD scaling is very similar to how it was in 2.0, other than the rate at which it will scale with better gear and River of Blood.

Straight Shot = +10% Crit - Base Crit multiplier is +45% - So Strait Shot adds an average of 4.5% extra damage, and the guaranteed crit of a Straighter Shot proc is not that strong.

Now imagine BRD hitting a 40% Crit Rate (with Straight Shot buff) at an effective 70% multiplier.

That means that Straight Shot is a 7% damage buff, with a 70% multiplier for straight shot procs + greater chance at Blood Letter procs.

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If SE is able to make adjustments so that BRD has more opportunity to weave oGCD skills, then I feel that it's damage output is going to be ridiculous with higher gear. The downside is that it starts out a bit weaker. (although some people are able to do great damage)

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Other than that issue with Straighter Shot procs being delayed. While stacking SPD if you get your cast time to 1.4s or less it really smooth's out the class and gives really tight dot reapplications

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IMO Foes and Ballad are irreplaceable, as far as party play and progression go. TP, not so much an issue now due to class changes.

[AkashiXI]

You are right that BRD scaling is very similar to how it was in 2.0, other than the rate at which it will scale with better gear and River of Blood.

Straight Shot = +10% Crit - Base Crit multiplier is +45% - So Strait Shot adds an average of 4.5% extra damage, and the guaranteed crit of a Straighter Shot proc is not that strong.

Now imagine BRD hitting a 40% Crit Rate (with Straight Shot buff) at an effective 70% multiplier.

That means that Straight Shot is a 7% damage buff, with a 70% multiplier for straight shot procs + greater chance at Blood Letter procs.

-------

If SE is able to make adjustments so that BRD has more opportunity to weave oGCD skills, then I feel that it's damage output is going to be ridiculous with higher gear. The downside is that it starts out a bit weaker. (although some people are able to do great damage)

-------

Other than that issue with Straighter Shot procs being delayed. While stacking SPD if you get your cast time to 1.4s or less it really smooth's out the class and gives really tight dot reapplications

------

IMO Foes and Ballad are irreplaceable, as far as party play and progression go. TP, not so much an issue now due to class changes.

River of Blood will always be gated with Wanderer's Minuet, and it's useless to metagame an idea that doesn't yet exist. There'll be plenty of scenarios when you can't hit your BL/RoD immediately, creating an overall DPS loss. Also having BL proc over and over and over again can cause issues for your OGCDs, which in turn messes up your necessary GCDs (EA, Iron Jaws, SS). River of Blood isn't as game breaking for Bard's meta as it was in 2.0. That being said, don't misconstrue my words: River of Blood is incredibly useful and pairs extremely well with multi-dotting Iron Jaws. We shine in AS1 for that reason.

Also your numbers are... off, or confusing at least. Where was it discovered that the base crit modifier is 45%? Is this pre 2.0, post 3.0? You do realize that the Crit Damage formula was changed, and how Crit works is also changed, right? I guess I need more information from you to truly understand where you're coming from.

Finally, Ballad and Foe aren't necessary, depending on the composition. If you're overgearing content, Ballad becomes negligible, along with Paeon. If your group is three melee, 1 caster, then Foe becomes less useful as well and the addition of a Ninja, Summoner, or DRG bring additional utility that'll effect raid DPS just as much. However, I will say that Floor 1~4 caters to Bard in terms of longevity, as their songs very strong for fights like As2, As3, and As4.

[Judge_Xero]

River of Blood will always be gated with Wanderer's Minuet, and it's useless to metagame an idea that doesn't yet exist. There'll be plenty of scenarios when you can't hit your BL/RoD immediately, creating an overall DPS loss. Also having BL proc over and over and over again can cause issues for your OGCDs, which in turn messes up your necessary GCDs (EA, Iron Jaws, SS). River of Blood isn't as game breaking for Bard's meta as it was in 2.0. That being said, don't misconstrue my words: River of Blood is incredibly useful and pairs extremely well with multi-dotting Iron Jaws. We shine in AS1 for that reason.

I'm not sure what the bolded section means.
If SE does make adjustments for BRD oGCD weaving then the gating wont be that bad.

Also your numbers are... off, or confusing at least. Where was it discovered that the base crit modifier is 45%? Is this pre 2.0, post 3.0? You do realize that the Crit Damage formula was changed, and how Crit works is also changed, right? I guess I need more information from you to truly understand where you're coming from.

Base Crit % = 5%
Base Crit Multiplier % = 45%

My example
40% Crit Rate with Straight Shot = 5% Base Crit, 10% from SS, 25% from Stats (+1056 Crit)
70% Multiplier = 45% Base Multi, 25% from Stats

Current BiS @ +480 Crit
26.4% Crit Rate with Straight Shot = 5% Base Crit, 10% from SS, 11.4 from Stats
56.4% Multiplier = 45% Base, 11.4% from Stats

Straight Shot = 5.6% damage increase

3.0 stat updates

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So you're right in that, BRD scaling is similar to 2.0, but I just wanted to emphasize how it is slightly different and will ramp up extremely quick.

Finally, Ballad and Foe aren't necessary, depending on the composition. If you're overgearing content, Ballad becomes negligible, along with Paeon. If your group is three melee, 1 caster, then Foe becomes less useful as well and the addition of a Ninja, Summoner, or DRG bring additional utility that'll effect raid DPS just as much. However, I will say that Floor 1~4 caters to Bard in terms of longevity, as their songs very strong for fights like As2, As3, and As4.

Sure, Bard songs are less useful if you are over gearing content, but then so is DPS, class balance, a 2nd healer, 7 other players. My wording could have been better, about party play and progression. I should have said specifically endgame. But, that hasn't really changed compared to 2.0 other than the addition of MCN, but their Turret skills aren't quite as strong, although more flexible.

[jmdude]

I understand that much, I still feel Bard is scaling the same way as it did in 2.0 though - Songs are becoming less useful, we're still dealing 200~ish less than other jobs, even moreso in Turns like 2 (SMNs and BLMs destroy us). The Weapon Damage is still a problem imo.

Sounds like the design SE wants. AFAIK the idea is you get 200 less dps for your "support songs" you're not supposed to do as much as other dps that have full kits for doing damage, even with 200 less dps bards can still do impressively high damage. My friend has a static where they cleared A3S with bard, mch, drg, and mch.

[RiceisNice]

Sounds like the design SE wants. AFAIK the idea is you get 200 less dps for your "support songs" you're not supposed to do as much as other dps that have full kits for doing damage, even with 200 less dps bards can still do impressively high damage. My friend has a static where they cleared A3S with bard, mch, drg, and mch.

Except using said songs already reduce the damage on top of your inherently lower damage, so it's double dipping in a sense.

And honestly, SE has jumped between this and "they have better mobility" as reasoning for their lower damage doesn't help the fact either.

[Vinestra]

Sounds like the design SE wants. AFAIK the idea is you get 200 less dps for your "support songs" you're not supposed to do as much as other dps that have full kits for doing damage, even with 200 less dps bards can still do impressively high damage. My friend has a static where they cleared A3S with bard, mch, drg, and mch.

You do know the reason WHY bard dealt less damage was because they had movement/instant skills, now in 3.0 No movement/Caster bars now. The songs all ready come with a damage debuff % to it (was it 20%? or was it nerfed don't remember). Bards are more or less dealing 2.55's damage currently (percentage difference), because.. they gave up movement in favour of being a turret and having cast times to deal more damage? Doesn't help that all the pre 52 skills aren't designed around Wanderers minuet either (besides barrage).

[Warlyx]

Bards are more or less dealing 2.55's damage currently (percentage difference), because.. they gave up movement in favour of being a turret and having cast times to deal more damage?

thats my main issue , we are dealing the same dmg (% wise) and lost movement... others job gained QOL changes and new fun mechanics / gameplay .....what we gained in HW? because it feels that we got nerfed (WM) and gained nothing in return....

30% dmg on the stance still we are in the same spot we were in 2.5 dmg wise... now we have cast bars tho

[RiceisNice]

thats my main issue , we are dealing the same dmg (% wise) and lost movement... others job gained QOL changes and new fun mechanics / gameplay .....what we gained in HW? because it feels that we got nerfed (WM) and gained nothing in return....

30% dmg on the stance still we are in the same spot we were in 2.5 dmg wise... now we have cast bars tho

My issue is that the concept of cast bars itself adds nothing engaging to me (as a BRD who didn't move anyway during 2.0 anyway, this is nothing groundbreaking or revolutionary), but rather introduced new problems that come because of how the cast bars interact with BRD skills.

Double it up with the fact that they gave the same gimmick to MCH and now the two jobs play similar to each other because of it.