Why does Ysayle want to protect Nidhogg? (spoilers)

[Februs]

Midgardsormr was here when the Twelve were still on Hydaelyn though. Since the 12 left at the beginning of the 1st Umbra Era Allage would not exist for thousands of years. The point isn't that Dragons aren't descended from aliens (that's exactly what Middy is) but that they predate Allag by thousands upon thousands of.years.

Again, I am aware that they predate the Allagans. I never said that they didn't. The only thing I said was that we don't know that the dragons were actually on the planet before the Allagans developed as a species. There's lots of stars up in that sky. They could have been anywhere. That being said, you indicate in your timeline that Middy arrives with the 7 eggs during the Divine Era. What's your source for this? I don't remember them saying it in the main story quest. Was it mentioned in a Lore panel that I missed or something?

Either way, The point is that Middy explicitly states in the story that when they arrived on the planet Bahamut and his mate left him to go seek out land to settle for their decedents. If Bahamut's search for new land was after the Allagans formed their civilization, than it's easy to see how they took it as a sign of aggression. If he did this before the rise of the Allagans, then it's still easy to see how they took it as a sign of aggression, since their entire species evolution would have been a competition for living space with another species of super powered dragons whom the Allagans eventually find out are not even originally from the same planet.

Honestly, it's harder for me to understand how the dragons couldn't have just avoided the whole thing. Given that they were alive long enough to see the Allagans evolve into full fledged beings and establish the Allagan empire, you'd think they would have had plenty of time to work things out with the Allagans... Chances are they were just fundamentally incompatible (Allagans: Hyper aggressive/progressive/expanding vs. Dragons: Hyper emotional/sentimental/self-righteous. = not a good mix.)

[Kaiser-Ace]

Again, I am aware that they predate the Allagans. I never said that they didn't. The only thing I said was that we don't know that the dragons were actually on the planet before the Allagans developed as a species. There's lots of stars up in that sky. They could have been anywhere. That being said, you indicate in your timeline that Middy arrives with the 7 eggs during the Divine Era. What's your source for this? I don't remember them saying it in the main story quest. Was it mentioned in a Lore panel that I missed or something?

What do you mean as a species? They were Hyuran or Elezen. The Miqo'te would have been their subjects post Meracydian Conquest, and the Roegadyn and Au Ra would have likely had contact with them during the conquest of Othard and Aldenaurd. Allage was a world encompoasing empire not a race. By the end of the 3rd astral era it is believed they ruled the entire planet of Hydaelyn.

I'll only say it one more time, maybe it'll sink in then, The Dragons were the FIRST race to come to the planet after the twelve began to shape Eorzea on Hydaelyn's behalf. There would be no Allagan Empire for approximately ten thousand years when the first dragons were born. The Races of Man (Which we now know is no less than six) caused the 1st umbral Era with a war between themselves. But allag is no more a race than Garlen is. It was a nationality. Like how most Britannians are Caucasian but their Ethnicity is Caucasian not Britannian. British is a Britannian's nationality. Same with Allag.

As for the Divine Era, it was only ever mentioned in ONE quest in 1.0 but since Midgardsormr was mentioned as interacting with the twelve, who left the mortal world after the fall of the divine era (Why who knows), then Midgardsormr predates the 1st Umbral Era. That's a 1+1=2 kind of inference.

[Februs]

What do you mean as a species?

You're splitting hairs here. My mistake on not using a specific enough word to encompass all of the people housed in an empire. I kind of figured the word "empire" summed it up, but fine, if my choice of word or lack of a plural is such an issue, lets say as a "people." How's that? Better for you? It doesn't change the fact that the dragons were alive and kicking long before the Elezen, Hyuran, Miqo'te, or any of the others were even squirming parasites in the cosmic cesspool of the galaxy, so I'm not sure why you saw fit to be so knit picky over one word that makes absolutely no difference to the conflict in any way shape or form (none of this changes that it was Dragons versus Allagans).

Further, I asked you, quite politely, for your source of how you supposedly know that the dragons came to Hydaelyn before the respective members of the Allagan Empire developed as individual species. I did not ask if they were born first. No one has ever argued against the first dragon predating the first of any species in the Allagan Empire. We all know which species was alive first. What I wanted to know is where you're getting the information that the dragons came to Hydaelyn so far in advance of any of the other species even being alive. I'm not sure why you saw fit to go on about nationalities instead.

From your last two lines, I can see that you don't, in fact, know. You have merely inferred that the dragons arrived before the Allagan's and their respective peoples developed, based on the fact that Middy had contact with the 12. That's not a bad inference, and, considering we have nothing else to go on, I'd say its a safe bet that they did, but, that still means that we have no solid proof that is the case. The writers have left it ambiguous and open to change it however they see fit. Which brings me back to my original comment, which stated that we simply don't know all the details of how the conflict started.

Also, even if we do take this inference as fact (for now, why not? We have nothing better to go on) that still doesn't change the validity of my overall argument. If the dragons were there to witness the entire evolution of all of the species on the planet, as well as the origin of the Allagan Empire, they had more than ample time to have worked things out, but they didn't. From the Allagan perspective (keeping in mind that this is a "people" who did extensive research on dragons for the war effort) they would have likely known how old the dragons were and where they came from. From Middy's conversation, we can infer that the catalyst for the conflict was Bahamut butting heads with the Allagans over territory (who butted who first, we don't know, but that's the inference being made. Middy is pretty clear on it). Enter the conflict. On one side is the Dragons, the older species (in case anyone didn't catch that bit) from space that, by rights should have been able to put a stop to all this nonsense before it even started, and on the other side Allagan people, an empire that (in case someone is unclear on the term "empire") is made up of multiple species who evolved and developed on this planet from the start.

[Kaiser-Ace]

Now we're on the same page Februs.

As the source it's common knowledge that the only documented timeline is from the Final Fantasy Wikia.

But we've now split the said hairs and in doing so found the issue.

Who struck first during the meracidia campain? Was it Bahamut who lashed out against the Allagan Colonists, or did the Allagan Army strike first in an attempt to conquer it? No one save Tiamat her self is alive to tell. And she's far from a nonbiased source.

Even the Lore says that anything prior to the 5th Astral Era is questionable at best. So no one really knows.

We can only infure and speculate. I only take for fact what the community has accepted as "True till proven false". All else is wild speculation.

[Februs]

But we've now split the said hairs and in doing so found the issue. Who struck first during the meracidia campain? Was it Bahamut who lashed out against the Allagan Colonists, or did the Allagan Army strike first in an attempt to conquer it? No one save Tiamat her self is alive to tell. And she's far from a nonbiased source..

Agreed. This is the big question.

Until recently, I had assumed (perhaps falsely) that the Allagans were responsible for that one, since most of the the Main story and sub stories (save for a few supporting characters in the Crystal Tower series) have painted the Allagan Empire as some evil entity that was hyper aggressive and almost solely interested in development, growth and attaining power at all costs. The writers have not been very sympathetic to the Allagans, keeping to their usual theme of: "Empires are evil." It was Middy's (ridiculously short and vague) words that made me second guess my assumption.

He seemed to indicate that the conflict sparked after Bahamut and Tiamat left his side to find a new place to live and grow their brood/family. It planted the possibility in my head that, from the Allagan perspective, it may have appeared as though, quite suddenly, a bunch of Dragons just started popping up on their borders (or possibly within them, as we don't know how considerate or diplomatic True Bahamut would have been about it). It would be nice to get the details straight from the horses mouth, but, as you say, I don't think we can trust Tiamat or even Middy to be objective about it. The character traits that SE has made common among all Dragons in the game, so far, makes me distrustful of their honesty or ability to be objective about anything.

[Frederick22]

Tiamat said that she with Bahamut had lived peacefully on Meracyadia until the allagans came, yes I trust her version of events, that the dragons didnt started the conflict with the allagans. Honestly i see no reason why we should not believe on her.
Keep in mind Februs that the allagans were conquering everything till the point they had almost the entire planet. If an empire came with intentions to conquer a foreing country, you think it will end peacefully? Look the Eorzians and the Garleans. Most porbably it happened the same thing with the meracya dragons and the allagans.

[Februs]

Snip.

I assumed this as well, and, despite the numerous historical examples of Empires expanding their borders through politics and marriages, I also assumed that the Allagans were more of a conquering type of people. The only thing that even made me question it was Middy's words, but even he did not specify when the conflict actually broke out. They could have been living there for decades before they even ran into the Allagans. That being said, I do not trust the Dragons to speak the truth, or at least not the whole truth, for a couple of reasons.

For one, when regarding the Allagan Empire in their notes on Odin, the Dev's made it a point to state that History is written by the victors, so we should take everything with grain of salt, because the allagans are not around to defend themselves. Secondly, the dragons are by far the most biased tellers of history, mostly because of their inherent character flaws.

So far, all of the dragons we have met suffer from the same character flaws: Vanity, Pride, Self-righteousness, and Self-entitlement. Despite the fact that they can be butchered like cattle, they seem to think their immortality somehow makes them superior or special and therefore except from the judgment. For example, Nidhogg uses his immortality as an excuse to sustain his lasting grudge and continued war of genocide. Tiamat uses her immortality to justify her guilt, grief, and continued imprisonment. She also already admitted that it was her compromised mindset that led to her summoning Bahamut in the first place, yet she continues to wallow in self-pity 5000 years later, despite knowing that it was that very mindset that lead to the terror of Bahamut. Hraeshvelgr uses his immortality to justify his lazy "I'm not involved" attitude because he is eternally grieving over eating Shiva (... yup). Yet, at the same time, he also maintains that he was totally justified in giving Nidhogg his eye, thereby allowing him to continue his war of genocide, despite supposedly still having Shiva's will inside of him. He also, at the drop of a hat, tells us that he could kill us in the blink of his one good eye if it weren't for that same immortal will stopping him from doing so. He then flaps off with his tale tucked between his legs, wallowing in more self-pity.. seriously?

At that point in the dialogue he is no better than any of the Primals or monsters we've left dead in our wake who all made the same claim and chose to underestimate us because of our mortality. You'd think the Dragons, with their immortal memories, would have learned that from their time warring with the Allagans, but I guess not. They seem to think themselves above any inconveniences that conflict with their pride and superiority. Consider that Hraeshvelgr didn't even tell us the story until we had pretty much found it out for ourselves. He conveniently left out the details. Tiamat strikes me as slightly more humble than that, but that doesn't mean that I trust her. She claims that her and Bahamut lived peacefully until the Allagans came, and I'm sure they did. I'm sure they had a very happy marriage... Just like I'm equally sure that she's leaving out some details about what happened or about the true character traits of Bahamut.

[Frederick22]

The reason why dragons have this behaviour with man is beacose of the allagans. so we I have never seen any dragon saing a lie.
For now we can asume that the origin of this conflict started with the allagans, have you ever visit azys la? I think so far we have learned more than enought of the atrosities the allagans have made, it makes kind of a perfect exucse of why dragons dont trust man.
Another thing about that history is written by victors, well this implies to dragons? only man does that, thats why there another reason why we should belive on their words

The dragonsong war is a different story, just to make clear I understand your point

[Nialle]

As far as I know the excuse for Nidhogg still being so angry is that 'dragons perceive time differently' so it seems like the betrayal is still recent..

Which...is one of the dumbest concepts I've ever heard, and makes absolutely no sense when applied to a sentient creature capable of plenty of thought, unless it's basically just a fancy way of saying dragons are extremely petty because they're immortal.

The assumption that just because a being is immortal that they'd automatically have superior ethics and morality to shorter-lived creatures is a flawed starting point, imo.
Nidhogg is a petty, violent dragon driven mad by his grief. There's no reason to believe that a dragon would not have weaknesses in mental state or character just like a human; it just means if they do snap, the consequences for everyone around them are that much more extreme because of their power.

[Kaiser-Ace]

Hmm, with two dead, one insaine, and two more sucumed to grief, what are the final two missing Celestial Dragons like?

It's not beyond immagening in my book that they could be the Auri Dawn Father and Dusk Mother, but what of their mental state?

It seems the Dragons big braging point, their near immortality, is actually their biggest flaw seeing as how 3 of the five living Celestial Dragon have succumed to suvere mental disorders while Midguardsormr him self has decended into a near apathetic state even in regards to his own children.